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Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments


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6 hours ago, dhchristian said:

No Need to apologize for expressing your opinion.

Sometimes an apology would seem appropriate.:unsure:

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On 8/14/2019 at 2:40 PM, dhchristian said:

But if you do a clear study of revelation you will see so much more than wrath especially early on in revelation. There is Mercy in the trumpets, that calls for repentance, there is opportunity in the seals with each progression for the saints to revive and give their testimony, and thereby accomplish the will Of God.

No ones repenting that has taken the Mark of the Beast, nor can they, you mistake God putting forth a factoid, that he will still call men to repent as having something to do with those he is Angry at.....those who took the Mark of the Beast are without chance. They would not repent because their hearts were too dark, hence they threw in with the Beast. So God saying, they yet would not repent, is just a figure of speech meant to show that these men God is killing HATED God and all His ways, thus God is justified in His wrath against these evil clowns who love evil more than good, and Satan more than God. God Mercy ends for those people before the DOTL. There will be a few who refuse to take the Mark of The Beast who also ESCARE DEATH for a while by hiding out somewhere, WHO KNOWS WHERE, but they could in theory still repent, but my guess is if they didn't accept the Mark of the Beast, they had already accepted Christ and thus made their stand......Choose ye this day whom ye will stand with !! By rejecting the easy way, and running/hiding/starving, they must have been Christians IMHO, but, in theory they could still repent. Basically, once God's Wrath Begins, the Church is in Heaven, the REPENTED Jews are in Petra, and the Remnant Church is being chased by the Dragon/Anti-Christ see Rev. 12:17 !! sSo the mercy is basically over when the Wrath starts. 

The only Saints not protected in Petra are the Gentile REMNANT CHURCH saved after the Rapture. I have proven the Remnant can't be Jews, because God protects the 1/3 and the 2/3 have NOT the Witness of Jesus in them or testimony of Jesus. Thus its the Remnant Gentile Church, which means THE CHURCH has to be in Heaven, Amen. Only the Two-witnesses give witness during the Tribulation. And a Witness/testimony can be to condemn !!

On 8/14/2019 at 2:40 PM, dhchristian said:

And then there is Wrath, yes incrementally in the Bowls, but on Grand scale when he sets foot upon the earth and leads the armies to battle. He is a Loving God who does not wish that any should perish, but he is also a just God that demands vindication. His Wrath is the final phase of end times, and the Righteous are never allowed to witness His Wrath. But the righteous have been able to experience his plagues upon the earth many times, and they have had to deal with them.

That's right, the Church is in Heaven, not on earth. Those Gentiles who repent AFTER the Rapture are the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal.  The only ones on earth in the middle of his Wrath is the Gentile Church, Satan/Dragon comes after them. And God has never brought His Wrath on His People. Captivity is CORRECTION, not Wrath. 

You go to the nth degree to deny the Rapture has taken place pre 70th week. 

 

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The Body of Christ will be raptured before the seals are opened. We are His Body!  We already have been crucified. We are promised that we are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.  The world thinks God is only a God of love. The world loves to beat us over the head with love love love. Our God is indeed love. The only love. However; He is also our God of wrath. He is going to destroy His enemies. He will not tolerate unbelief. 

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On 8/15/2019 at 11:47 AM, iamlamad said:

Spock, don't get lost in the forest staring at individual trees! Back up a few paces and notice that the seals are sealing a BOOK and John's purpose is to get that book opened so that the trumpets can be sounded so that Satan can be cast down.

Its actually more akin to a WILL and Testament. The Seals is where Satan is cast down, the 6th Seal to be exact, but it happens on day 1261, with 1260 days left before the Second Coming, thus he chases the Woman for 1260 days. Thus SIX of the Seals are opened on day 1261. The 7th Seal must be HELD UP, so the Jews can make it unto Petra. Then the 7th Seal brings forth the 7 Trumpets, the last three which is the THREE WOES, the Last Woe is the 7 Vials. 

But overall I agree, Jesus needs to open the Seals so the Anti Christ can GO FORTH Conquering. 

On 8/15/2019 at 11:49 AM, iamlamad said:

Elijah (the spirit of) indeed came before the Day of the Lord when John the Baptist came in the SPIRIT of Elijah. Elijah in person will be one of the two witnesses. 

That is wrong sir, I have proven this to many  people many times. That is not what Jesus is saying, Gabriel even tells his dad that John is not Elijah. Jesus is just saying that John, was a great man, and he did the EXACT SAME THING Elijah will do when he does come to turn Israel back unto God....It just wasn't time for Israel to repent. God could have sent Elijah back 2000 years ago and the Jews still wouldn't have repented !! So God knowing all, will send Elijah back at just the right time, during the END TIMES. 

 

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On 8/15/2019 at 11:53 AM, iamlamad said:

How about we just follow John? Wrath or "the day" does not begin until the 6th seal, leaving the first 5 outside the DAy and before the 70th week, which will begin with the 7th seal.

All 6 Seals are opened on Day 1261....The first 4 are Jesus RELEASING the Beast to go forth doing THOSE FOUR SPECIFIC THINGS over a 1260 day period, and the 5th Seal is the TESTIMONY of the Saints over that same 42 month period.....So that is just Jesus RELEASING the Beast...there needs to be no waiting, thus its Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom.....within minutes or seconds and then the 6th Seal is Opened............................The Dragon chases the WOMAN for 1260 days !! Its a CLUE to when hes cast down !! On day 1261....1260 days from the Second Coming. The first 5 Seals are what the Dragon and Anti-Christ are going to do over a 42 month period. The 6thh Seal is Satan being cast out of Heaven, the 7th Seal is HELD UP....Until the Jews {144,000} make it to Petra. 

 

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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That's right, the Church is in Heaven, not on earth. Those Gentiles who repent AFTER the Rapture are the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal.  The only ones on earth in the middle of his Wrath is the Gentile Church, Satan/Dragon comes after them. And God has never brought His Wrath on His People. Captivity is CORRECTION, not Wrath. 

You go to the nth degree to deny the Rapture has taken place pre 70th week. 

And that is where I disagree with you. I Believe in a pre wrath rapture. Which means the church remains for the first part of the final week of the Great tribulation. Tribulation in its very nature is a concept that applies to believers to test their faith. 

Ask Yourself, when Satan is thrown down to earth, he unleashes his wrath on whom? Those who have sworn allegiance to him? Israelites, who are fully entangled in the beast system, and living in unbelief? If the church is not around, Satan has no one to be angry at, and no one to make war with. If the Mark of the beast is forced upon people, and all of the people remaining are in line with the beast system (Wicked), then who are the people who refuse the mark of the beast? Would not all the wicked be lining up to take the mark of the beast? Do You see how illogical the pre-trib rapture is yet?

No My friend, we will go through the fire of testing because judgment begins at the house of God. (1 Peter 4:17) Just like what Jesus says in the Olivet discourse Immediately after the tribulation of those days, we will see our redemption, as Israel becomes the enemy of Satan, when they begin to have their eyes opened. There is no need to make excuses and try to say that Matthew, Mark, and Luke were in error when they all three recorded what Jesus said, all of whom place the redemption of the church after the great tribulation. And this great tribulation is not just a reference to the church age, but a reference to the first half of the final week when the abomination occurs. and the mark of the beast is mandated. The mark of the beast is a seduction, who is there to be seduced if the church is not there in the first place?

Like I said, If the pre tribbers are right, then I will be rejoicing with you in heaven, But if they are wrong and have used this belief as an excuse to not be prepared for the wrath of Satan then they will be sorely vexed.    

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This is imperfect but I think generally correct in that the 6th seal and 7th trump occur nearly simultaneously.

 

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5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

All 6 Seals are opened on Day 1261....The first 4 are Jesus RELEASES the Beast to go forth doing THOSE FOUR SPECIFIC THINGS over a 1260 day period, and the 5th Seal is the TESTIMONY of the Saints over that same 42 month period.....So that is just Jesus RELEASING the Beast...there needs to be no waiting, thus its Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom.....within minutes or seconds and then the 6th Seal is Opened............................The Dragon chases the WOMAN for 1260 days !! Its a CLUE to when hes cast down !! On day 1261....1260 days from the Second Coming. The first 5 Seals are what the Dragon and Anti-Christ are going to do over a 42 month period. The 6thh Seal is Satan being cast out of Heaven, the 7th Seal is HELD UP....Until the Jews {144,000} make it to Petra. 

 

I think you live in a dream world.  No, the Dragon does NOT chase the woman for 1260 days. Did you not read?

16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He left off chasing the woman  and turned to make war with those that love Jesus.

Readers, the truth is, the first five seals are CHURCH AGE. Seal 5 are the martyrs of the church age, and we have not yet arrived at the start of the Day which is seal 6.

God will begin the Day of the Lord with the 6th seal, and (probably 10 days) later will open the 7th seal to begin the 70th week.

 

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This is imperfect but I think generally correct in that the 6th seal and 7th trump occur nearly simultaneously.

 

Not a chance: NONE: the seals are sealing the book and NO TRUMPET can be sounded until all seven seals are opened so that the book can be opened: the trumpets are INSIDE the book.

8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

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2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

And that is where I disagree with you. I Believe in a pre wrath rapture. Which means the church remains for the first part of the final week of the Great tribulation. Tribulation in its very nature is a concept that applies to believers to test their faith. 

Ask Yourself, when Satan is thrown down to earth, he unleashes his wrath on whom? Those who have sworn allegiance to him? Israelites, who are fully entangled in the beast system, and living in unbelief? If the church is not around, Satan has no one to be angry at, and no one to make war with. If the Mark of the beast is forced upon people, and all of the people remaining are in line with the beast system (Wicked), then who are the people who refuse the mark of the beast? Would not all the wicked be lining up to take the mark of the beast? Do You see how illogical the pre-trib rapture is yet?

No My friend, we will go through the fire of testing because judgment begins at the house of God. (1 Peter 4:17) Just like what Jesus says in the Olivet discourse Immediately after the tribulation of those days, we will see our redemption, as Israel becomes the enemy of Satan, when they begin to have their eyes opened. There is no need to make excuses and try to say that Matthew, Mark, and Luke were in error when they all three recorded what Jesus said, all of whom place the redemption of the church after the great tribulation. And this great tribulation is not just a reference to the church age, but a reference to the first half of the final week when the abomination occurs. and the mark of the beast is mandated. The mark of the beast is a seduction, who is there to be seduced if the church is not there in the first place?

Like I said, If the pre tribbers are right, then I will be rejoicing with you in heaven, But if they are wrong and have used this belief as an excuse to not be prepared for the wrath of Satan then they will be sorely vexed.    

Can we just follow the book, instead of human reasoning? You asked: upon whom will Satan vent his wrath? Why not just read?

Rev. 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  (rest: [KJV says "remnant" meaning what is left after most have been raptured])

John therefore tells us, Satan will go after the Jews, first those that fled into the wilderness, and then will turn and go after all new believers. From other verses, we know that there will still be Jews in Jerusalem when Jesus touches down and creates a valley for people to escape. In short, his wrath will be against ALL who refuse his mark and refuse to bow to the image.

There is "tribulation" that all believers face because Satan hated Jesus and so hates all who believe in Jesus. On the other hand, there is tribulation at the end that also comes simultaneous with God's wrath.  Scripturally speaking, it is impossible to separate God's wrath in time from Satan's wrath, for they are simultaneous - going on at the same time. God's wrath begins with the first trumpet judgements in the first 1260 days, and continues on through the last half of the week in the vials. Satan is cast down at the midpoint so his wrath is concurrent with the last 1260 days - right beside God's wrath.  On yet another hand, the church's testing will end at the pretrib rapture - which you deny.

What you miss: you really don't know where "the tribulation" or the 70th week begins in Revelation. How then can you be so sure when the rapture will be in relation to the "trib?"  Both Rosenthal and Van Kampen [the two guys who started prewrath thought] recognized that the great crowd, too large to number, had to be the raptured church. That was about all they got right.  What they [and you] miss is that the 70th week does not start until the 7th seal, AFTER (I repeat, after!) the church is seen safely in heaven.

Prewrath further misses the truth is where the days of Great Tribulation are found in Revelation. John SHOWS us so to miss it is inexcusable: John shows us the beheaded BEGINNING to show up in heaven in Rev. 15. The days of GT will start AFTER God sends the warning as seen in Rev. 14, and will continue until God pours out the vials of His wrath that will SHORTEN the days of GT.

Prewrath further misses the truth by assuming that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. It is not and cannot possibly be: it gathers from the wrong place and comes some 7 years after Paul's rapture.

Prewrath misses it yet again in not recognizing that the signs in the sun and moon shown in Matthew 24 are DIFFERENT than the signs shown at the 6th seal: different actual signs and different in timing.

Prewrath is correct in title only: the rapture is certainly prewrath: the raptured church is seen in heaven right after the wrath of God begins - at the 6th seal.  The truth is, the rapture is both prewrath AND pretrib.

who are the people who refuse the mark of the beast?  Another thing you seem to be missing: after the rapture, millions will turn to Jesus. These are those found in dead churches today  - churches that never taught them that they must be born again. We can be sure, most Jews and Hebrews will not bow down and will not take His mark.

Do You see how illogical the pre-trib rapture is yet?  On the contrary, I see how far from the truth the prewrath doctrine is.

who is there to be seduced if the church is not there in the first place?  Jews and believers in Christ. John said all whose names are written in heaven. Maybe you have not seem them, but God knows who they will be.  One thing we can be sure of, it will NOT be any member of the Bride of Christ.

Back to the drawing board, as they say. Throw out prewrath and start over.

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