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thomas t

Talking about atheists here on Worthy

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1 minute ago, thomas t said:

Hi Michael.

Still, that passage doesn't apply to him. If he's outside the church than he's out of the realm Hebrews 3:12 is talking about.

You made a big mistake, in my opinion. You've attacked someone on the personal level. This happened on a public board. This is so so sad.

Thomas

P.S.:

this does happen. Hopefully we can make a convincing case in the future.

No, I didn't attack him. Calm down. We had been conversing about a whole range of topics for a few years on the Freedictionary Forum,, particularly science. All very civil. He just reacted to any thought that there was a Divine Being who decided what was good and what was evil.

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1 minute ago, Michael37 said:

No, I didn't attack him.

I don't understand.

Last time you wrote this:

12 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

and it was him I was in discussion with.

so you wrote him that verse Hebrews 3:12? So why is that not attacking, in your opinion?

Of course you can insult using Bible verses, in my opinion.

Look I don't have anything against you personally. It's just that some among us want to outreach to the non-believers... and then we have another group posting statements like saying they have wicked hearts. How does this work together, I'm asking myself. We shouldn't work against one another. The latter shouldn't destroy the work of the former, please.

Thomas

 

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2 minutes ago, thomas t said:

I don't understand.

Last time you wrote this:

so you wrote him that verse Hebrews 3:12? So why is that not attacking, in your opinion?

Of course you can insult using Bible verses, in my opinion.

Look I don't have anything against you personally. It's just that some among us want to outreach to the non-believers... and then we have another group posting statements like saying they have wicked hearts. How does this work together, I'm asking myself. We shouldn't work against one another. The latter shouldn't destroy the work of the former, please.

Thomas

 

Your opinions are noted. We were never at loggerheads. He was keen to push evolution as a cause of religious belief, as well as responsible for a set of rules that humans have created to survive. He used to quote Scripture so that he could refute it in favour of evolutionary science. Our dialogue was friendly but like a serious game of tennis back and forth on each point. His concept of there being no Divinely authored morality naturally led to a discussion of verses that describe things as either good or evil. This man was nearly 70 and had renounced his former faith in Christ while in his late 20's or early 30's. He was a prolific poster on the religious forum, couldn't leave it alone, had to challenge any thing that favoured belief in God. 

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My apologies thomas. I was trying to click to go to the next page and I accidentally banned you from the topic, then immediately unbanned you. I dont know if you get notified when that happens so I just wanted you to know what was going on in case you got any message about it.

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31 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

He went to University to study for a degree and after studying evolution-based science began to doubt his faith and the Bible until he renounced Christ, much to the utter dismay of his Christian wife and extended family. 

Man, what a sad story! But hopefully not the end of it...

I can understand why you posted this in that scenario then. 

Interestingly, it seems a "lack of belief" and faith were understood quite differently in the first century.  Today, and in the west, we assume faith and belief is just in that "Yahweh exists". However, this is taken as a given in Bible. Rather, many such passages are referring to the faith and belief we must have in what Yahweh and His Son SAY.  That is, faith that He will do that all which He has promised and that all He says is true. 

Unfortunately, in this day and age, the big challenge is to just believe that He even exists! And I think that colours our perception of many verses to do with faith in Yahweh and His Son. 

Understandably, the atheist will then see such verses as an ultimatum, of "believe in what you can't see, hear or touch and you will be saved. If not, hell awaits".  Some Christians think this way as well, that the mere belief in His Son's existence alone is enough to save them.  But, even the demons match that kind of belief. 

But I'm not having a dig a you Michael, just sharing my thoughts. It is very sad to see when a Christian leader falls away and so I can see your heart on the matter.  Hopefully he snaps out of it and returns soon. 

Love & Shalom 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Your opinions are noted.

thank you very much for listening. It's a great gift to rethink things one has said, and many have trouble doing this.

Just a little comment, it will be my last one on this, ok?

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

We were never at loggerheads.

an insult is still an insult, even if pronounced in a calm voice.

It is Jesus who sets up the rules, and we should heed them. Always. And insulting just goes too far, Jesus makes that real clear (it's the "don't judge"-verse). Consider a business. You try to sell on a fair. An interested person comes to your stand and you come to engage in a kind of friendly discussion. "You have an evil heart", however, is just way over the top even if the discussion has been friendly so far.

Actually, the problem I see here is that... so many believers resort to this kind of attacks, already and any atmosphere is long-lastingly poisoned through this kind of remarks, I think. One more condescending remark is adding fuel to the fire.

Well, now I'm harping on what you've said. I feel a bit sorry for that - you just jumped in the moment when I thought by myself why we can't just keep the rules and never insult - and just do the work!".

Last but not least, I hope that everyone stops insulting non-believers. We want something from them, as we are the ones who invite them.

Thomas

Edited by thomas t
typo

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4 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Yes, if someone referred to me directly or indirectly as an "employee of satan", I would have laughed and joked in response.  But inside I would be very insulted and disillusioned with looking further into Christianity.  I could have accept I was a sinner but not an "employee of satan", that's too far.   

This is taken out of context.  It is not towards atheists but to believers.  "See to it, brothers...". The subsequent verses also make it clear that the author is writing to believers, not atheists.  It's not suitable to supply this verse to an atheist.

We don't have a detailed account of how the Lord spoke with sinners and tax-collectors specifically.  But we can see that they were warm, welcoming and as "friends" of the Lord, in the eyes of others.   He ate and drank with them and they seemed eager to be around Him.   Therefore, I doubt the Lord referred to them as "employees of satan" or having an "evil, wicked heart".  On the contrary, it was the religious types, who lifted themselves up as special, whom He condemned.

Listen, I know some (most) atheists can be tough to deal with, rude and arrogant.   But how do you imagine they think of Christians who write them off to satan?  Even if that is technically true (which I don't believe it is in every case), how do you imagine that sounds to someone who is struggling to even believe in God?

Quote

Yes, if someone referred to me directly or indirectly as an "employee of satan", I would have laughed and joked in response.  But inside I would be very insulted and disillusioned with looking further into Christianity.  I could have accept I was a sinner but not an "employee of satan", that's too far.   

Who do you think unbelievers belong too?

What would happen to them if they die?

It's never too late for people to come to Jesus but in the mean time,they're lost and therefore will go to hell. ( As sad as it sounds.) We all have a choice to make,

For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.2 Cor.6:2

 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.Ps.14:1

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Shalom @angels4u

16 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Who do you think unbelievers belong too?

No one.  Conceptually speaking or in certain cases, the devil.  But in general they are enslaved to sin and death.  I don't believe they are employees or puppets of satan.  Some can be, but not all.

20 minutes ago, angels4u said:

What would happen to them if they die?

To not take part in Eternal Life doesn't mean because they belong to satan.   It simply means that they don't belong to Yahweh.   Now, some do belong to satan, but not all.

Satan is limited.  He is one angel.  Even along with his other minions, he is still greatly limited.  For Christians to believe that satan dwells in every atheist is giving him too much credit and not realising every atheist isn't vital to satan's plans.  Satan has bigger fish to fry (especially at this time) without bothering with controlling every single evolutionist. 

The sad truth is - man without God is hopeless, cruel, selfish and prideful, without having to "belong" to satan.   But to think so is no different than how Christians used to think that black keys on a keyboard were demonic - because they were minor notes.  It's narrow-minded.  "Ah! you're not with us, then you must be with satan!" - Conceptually, yes.  Actually, not necessarily.  I would only lean that way if they had another god-based faith.

But look, whatever your belief on the matter, when dealing with unbelievers directly, we should avoid such statements.   We can be factually incorrect  and confuse them with their embedded preconceptions embued by Hollywood.   So let's not call them satan's minions, employess, puppets or worshippers and instead share the good news. 

Our message should remain the same, whether they actually belong to satan or not.  And we should respect them as potential brothers and sisters, whether they will be or not.  Why say or do anything beyond this?

Love & Shalom

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All Unbelievers do not “ belong” to Satan.It is closer to the Truth to say that they have “ been BLINDED by the Ruler of this World”. Satan , of course. “ The Gospel is foolishness to those that perish”. Only the Holy Spirit can remove the scales from their eyes......We are to present them with the Gospel and the rest is up to God.I am sure many unbelievers have convinced themselves that they can “ get religion” before they die, just in case they are wrong .It does not work that way .The initiative belongs to God- not them.

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sometime in future,i will introduce y what extreme atheists maens ,that is :the chinese men!

Y guys have no real experience aboout the atheists

So y are  not qualified to talk bout them

But we chinese

We are the atheists for more than 3000 years!

We have no religion from the very beginning of our civilization

 

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