Received Baptism of Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues

[Spock]

4 hours ago, Still Alive said:

My first 18 years as a Christian (beginning at age 27) were at an AG church which was very into speaking in "tongues". I really wanted it and, one Sunday evening, a pastor who specialized in it preached and wanted people to come forward. I was running sound, so I couldn't. But afterward I talked to the pastor and the three of us went into a side room and prayed about it. To make a long story short, I no longer respect that man.

To be clear, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying that a lot of people fake it. I believe people in that church did speak in tongues, but one thing that bothered me was that there was almost an attitude of "if you don't, it means you are not really saved and not "one of us". It didn't cause me to leave that church or anything (my leaving was due to something else), but it was always a bit of a thorn, especially when one message given in the congregation was proven to be 100% false. 

Thanks for sharing this with us. I had a similar experience back in the 80s when friends of mine wanted me to come to their church and talk with the pastor. The pastor invited me to attend the “speaking in tongues” class where they TEACH the speaking. I questioned him about this and asked, so I need man’s help to do something the HS is more than capable to do?  I said, I’m not aware anyone who spoke in tongues in the Book of Acts had to attend a seminar first or receive 30 hours of counseling.....He then told me, “I don’t think you are ready to receive this baptism with your defensive attitude.....” 

This led me to hundreds of hours of research to find out what is the truth. Did I find it? I hope so, but I admit, I do not have all knowledge just like everyone else.  

Just to make sure no one is misinterpreting my words, I fully agree that the gift of speaking in tongues exists today. Just not too sure about this Baptism.....

[Jostler]

4 minutes ago, Spock said:

...Just to make sure no one is misinterpreting my words, I fully agree that the gift of speaking in tongues exists today. Just not too sure about this Baptism.....

 

It's not difficult friend:

Quote

Mat 3:11

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

fire is coming.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Jostler

[Spock]

1 minute ago, Jostler said:

 

It's not difficult friend:

 

Yep, things sure changed after Jesus left this planet. Now, a believer in Christ gets sealed with the indwelling HS.....something that did not happen before Pentecost (except for a select few). 

That my brother is the baptism of the HS.....you may or may not speak in tongues when you first bow your knee and heart to receive Christ. Most I’m sure don’t. It’s a gift.....

[JustPassingThru]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks for sharing this with us. I had a similar experience back in the 80s when friends of mine wanted me to come to their church and talk with the pastor. The pastor invited me to attend the “speaking in tongues” class where they TEACH the speaking.

I would like to add my own personal experience to what our brother Spock has said, also, spew alert, ...don't drink anything while reading this!

My wife was saved by the preaching of a French AoG pastor that came here to evangelize, ...when he left the American AoG sent a pastor for them, then he had to leave and another couple came to pastor the church, they stayed for a couple of years and then they were replaced.

Many years later the second couple came back to visit and they stayed with us for two weeks, after that we kept in touch through email, they were back in the States and sent us monthly updates, then they felt the Lord calling them to another Polynesian nation in the South Pacific so they went there to preach the Gospel, then after a couple of years they had covered the island so they felt the Lord moving them into a different ministry in the churches, ...teaching the deaf and dumb how to speak in tongues.............   

[seeking the lost]

19 hours ago, warrior12 said:

I also think, a pastor should not be prompting anyone to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it is a gift and the Lord knows how to give his gifts.  I am not in anyway discrediting the OP encounter, as it is his and I have to respect his testimony.  Just to caution thought that satan comes in as an angel of light too and we have to be on our gard.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

This passage from Matthew 7 indicates that we need to ask, seek and knock.

[JustPassingThru]

4 hours ago, Still Alive said:

In my case, it seems to be laying on of hands. My wife has been miraculously healed when I did that. And it was kinda like some "tongues" testimonies. I was as compelled to do it as you are to breathe. And it was almost like it wasn't me doing it. I've never experienced anything else like it.

And yes, I definitely believe we exist alongside a "spiritual realm". In fact, I think it's possible our spirits are a projection into this physical realm from that one.

I have a similar experience, the Lord told me to lay hands on a dear friend for healing, which I did, ..in doubt, ...however, He went beyond my doubt and she was permanently healed.

Here's what happen to me by the laying on of hands, ...the pastor taught a new believers Bible Study on the fundamental doctrinal Truth found in the Word, the last meeting we had he taught on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, after that we had a time of worship and he said if anyone felt the Holy Spirit calling them to come forward, he and the assistant pastor would lay hands on us and tell us what gift(s) the Holy Spirit was giving us, ..yeah right, at that time I was one of the most skeptical persons in the church, some went forward, but not me, no way, then we sang a song that I really liked, ...I felt an urging in my soul, ...but I didn't believe it was the Holy Spirit calling me, when the song was finished the pastor was going to dismiss us and then the worship leader spoke up and said he felt the Lord wanted to sing one more song, ...uh oh, I thought, ...yep, it was as though I was being drawn  forward, ...I sat down with the pastor, he laid hands on me and prayed for the Holy Spirit to reveal the gifts He had for me, he leaned over and whispered the Holy Spirit was giving me three gifts, ...in my ear, then he said go over to the assistant pastor for confirmation, he did the same as the pastor and he whispered the same three gifts in my ear, ...and they were at least 30 feet apart so there was no way he could of heard what the pastor had whispered in my ear.

And yes, 30 years later the Holy Spirit has empowered me, enabled me to use those gifts when He saw the need. Was I baptized that night, can't say, there wasn't any thing out of the ordinary, any unusual signs or wonders, I just went home like always and went to bed. I write this to show any that might be confused on this subject, ...I'm a hands on type of guy, I need to be able to hold it in my hands before I can understand it, languages have always been illusive for me, so if anyone needed the gift of tongues to preach the Gospel in French or Tahitian it would be me, but, ...I've prayed and prayed for it and He has never given me the gift of tongues.

 

Lord bless

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

I think it wise to pay attention to the last sentence.....many , if not all that speak in tongues do it in private.....

Prophecy and Tongues
…17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other one is not edified. 18I thankGod that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church, I would rather speak five coherent words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.…

Berean Study Bible · Download

Cross References

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:4
The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

1 Corinthians 14:5
I wish that all of you could speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1 Corinthians 14:17
You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other one is not edified.

1 Corinthians 14:19
But in the church, I would rather speak five coherent words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Blood Bought 1953

[warrior12]

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

This passage from Matthew 7 indicates that we need to ask, seek and knock.

In reference to the thread and its topic, the verses below describes what is given to us when we become born again believers.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)

³⁷ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

³⁹ For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

[GandalfTheWise]

8 minutes ago, Spock said:

Disclaimer: I have only read the OP so before I read other comments I do have to ask this....

What exactly is the Baptism of the HS?  Reading your post I was led to believe you were already one in Christ through the indwelling HS. 

So what exactly is this subsequent Baptism?  Thanks.....

I've spent years worth of time in churches and ministries which are on both sides of this issue so I've heard a number of teachings and sermons from both sides.  I've known a lot of Christians (at all stages of their walk with Christ) on both sides.  I have no doubt both sides are Christians.   The last church we attended was a pentecostal one.  The current evangelical church we attend tends to be cessationist in outlook with a few on staff having made some comments suggesting rather strong opinions against pentecostals, but seems to have an unofficial  "don't ask, don't tell" policy.  

I'll try to cover the big picture here.  The following is basically an oversimplified overview of the context.  Most answers and discussions you hear will have their roots in this context.

My sense of things is that the phrase "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" is used differently by different groups.  The phrase "baptize in the Holy Spirit" first comes from John the Baptist talking about Jesus.  It is used again in Acts 1 where it refers to the upcoming day of Pentecost.  Different groups of Christians make assumptions about what in the book of Acts constitutes being "baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire".  Some take it as a clear prophecy of only Pentecost which was fulfilled once and for all for the church as a whole. Others take it as an ongoing promise of something intended for each new believer with various events in Acts showing this as something ongoing as the gospel spread. 

There seem to be 2 main points of contention between Christians on this issue.  The first is if indwelling and baptism are two separate things or merely different aspects of the same thing.   By indwelling, I'll refer to the initial work of salvation.  By baptism, I'll refer to a possibly subsequent work of empowerment. The second is whether or not the early church age manifestations of this baptism still occur today and the reasons for that.  

One place where Christians disagree is in explaining what "really" happened in various passages in Acts.  Some are convinced that every time the Holy Spirit came (with evidence of tongues and/or prophecy) that it was only associated with initial conversion (other than maybe Pentecost being a unique event).  They would say that indwelling and baptism occur together and are a once for all type of thing.   Others are convinced that the indwelling always happened first, but the baptism is different and sometimes subsequent to that.  This sometimes leads to such questions as to whether or not the apostles and others in the upper room were born-again before Pentecost (such as John 20:22 referring to them actually receiving the Holy Spirit in some way at that point in time) or whether they were all born-again at Pentecost.  As far as I can tell, each side tends to read their prior opinions into explaining each event in Acts.

The second disagreement is if there was a divine reason why various miraculous manifestations stopped.  Some Christians are convinced the Bible teaches anything miraculous is primarily an initial sign when God starts a new work and becomes superfluous once the work is going.  The early church needed a jump start with signs to unbelievers to get the first converts, but that is not needed today because the changed lives of Christians are the primary miraculous sign God gives.  Other Christians are convinced the Bible teaches that God would always continue to do the miraculous throughout the church age and has done so in various times and places.  In addition, there is a further consideration that some Christians are convinced that the Bible is the *only* source of guidance and revelation to Christians today whereas others are convinced that God still gives guidance and revelation today which must always align with scripture.  Hence there is disagreement over whether or not any gift related to revelation or guidance exists anymore.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room is how to view the pentecostal/charismatic movement from a biblical perspective.  (There's some differences between pentecostals and charismatics that I'm glossing over here.)   Over the past decade or so, the Pew Research Center has done a number of studies on this which provides a lot of demographic and census type of information about this movement.  Here's a link to an older set of reports.  https://www.pewforum.org/2006/10/05/spirit-and-power/  

Given that there are over half a billion (billion with a "b") pentecostal and charismatic Christians today and that the modern pentecostal/charismatic movement started only 120 years ago, this is an incredible growth rate.  No other religious or spiritual movement in the world has ever seen growth on this scale before.  Unlike many of the large world religions which have grown over several centuries or millennia primarily through birth rates or political conquest, this movement has grown primarily through new conversions to Christ.  

As a reference, here are some religious groups with their current estimated numbers and approximate age.   Buddhist 500 million (2500 years),  Islam 1500 million (1400 years), Jehovah's Witnesses 6.5 million (140 years),  Mormons 12 million (190 years), Hindu 1000 million (3500 years in various forms/1500-2000 years in current form), and RCC 1200 million (1500 years or so).   These religions also tend to be localized in particular regions of the world.  In contrast, Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians 600 million (120 years).   Pentecostal and charismatic Christianity is growing most rapidly in South America and Africa.  Most pentecostals and charismatics are first or second generation in the movement.

Some Christians see this as proof Satan is deluding many with false signs and wonders and would attribute this growth to the demonic creating an end-time one world church.  Other Christians see this as a great end time harvest before Christ's return which God is empowering in the same way as the early church.   Some are convinced the Bible teaches God no longer does such things so it is some combination of wild emotion, delusion, and occult deception.  Others simply listen to the testimonies of the many Christians who have come to Christ and observe the many changed lives through these ministries and rejoice God is doing awesome things today.

Now to your real question.     At it's core, pentecostalism is rooted in the idea that God is doing things today in the same way He did in the early church.  Thus such things as healing, miracles, divine guidance, and sign gifts are expected to be seen.  The pentecostal view of such things is that Jesus told His disciples to remain in Jerusalem until they were baptized in the Spirit and received power from on high.  Pentecostals see this baptism in the Holy Spirit as something separate from conversion and salvation and associated with empowering for ministry (But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Acts 1:8 NIV).   They see this as something for all Christians.  They see this as something that will be obvious and apparent in some way just as the coming of the Holy Spirit was in various places in Acts.  Given that tongues and prophecy are frequently mentioned in connection with this, some pentecostals emphasize such things as being evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurring in the same way as in Acts.  Ultimately, this is based on many testimonies of solid mature credible Christians who simply give testimony that they had something new happen to them spiritually that had never happened before, often associated with joy, a bubbling up of emotion, a sense of God's awesomeness, and often followed by a new sense of spiritual awareness to spiritual things around them as well as an enhanced faith about what God can do.   From what I can tell, the more thoughtful pentecostals clearly separate this baptism and empowering from the spiritual growth and maturity which comes from abiding in Christ where fruit of the Spirit develops as we grow.  My sense is that while some enthusiastic pentecostals attribute both spiritual growth and empowering to the baptism of the  Holy Spirit, I think that the more thoughtful ones separate the spiritual transformation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from ministry empowerment of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  I think this is a fair presentation of what most pentecostals would say on the issue.

I've hung around enough pentecostals and charismatics to have seen some get overzealous about such things.  As far as I can tell, this usually tends to be a temporary phase for most.  I've seen some that try to mimic in the flesh things that do happen at times when God is doing things in people.  I've been at "healing" services where the minister basically pushed people over (simple little physics trick I could use to push anyone over with a light touch to the forehead) as "evidence" God's Spirit was doing something.  But I have too been at services where people have been healed of things.

(Aside on a topic that sometimes arises.  Some Christians teach that spiritual gifts are given to individuals;  hence an individual will have only have a particular gift or a few.  Other Christians teach that spiritual gifts are given to the church as a whole; hence various individuals may use various gifts as the church needs at various times in their life.   Those in the first group tend to focus on discovering and using one's gifts and emphasize how one receives those gifts at conversion.  Those in the latter group tend to focus on discerning God's leading in a particular situation as to what is needed.  These two views tend to follow along the lines summarized above.)

Bottom line is something like this.  Those who are convinced that the Bible teaches such things died out with the apostles typically attribute these things to some combination of emotion, flesh, self-seeking, deception, or demonic influence.  They usually dismiss testimony on such things as subjective and untrustworthy.  Those who are convinced God is doing today similar to things in the book of Acts are willing to accept believers' testimonies on such things in the same way they accept their testimony of conversion.   Hence, with the OP of this thread, some react with a "Praise the Lord" and others react with a "Whoa.  We need to be very careful here and not encourage this sort thing."

 

[ravindran]

12 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

From what I can tell, the more thoughtful pentecostals clearly separate this baptism and empowering from the spiritual growth and maturity which comes from abiding in Christ where fruit of the Spirit develops as we grow.  My sense is that while some enthusiastic pentecostals attribute both spiritual growth and empowering to the baptism of the  Holy Spirit, I think that the more thoughtful ones separate the spiritual transformation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from ministry empowerment of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  I think this is a fair presentation of what most pentecostals would say on the issue.

A very well written and balanced view on this! Appreciate you taking time to write about you. I have highlighted a specific portion and I am in complete agreement with this. Based on my study of scripture, I believe this empowerment is for things such as ministry and being a witness for His name. I don't believe this empowerment would mean spiritual transformation. That takes time. Reading Scripture, prayers, etc are much needed for those. The empowerment would act as a catalyst and prompt a person to seek the transformation more. But that is not the primary driver. This is what I believe based on my study of Scripture.