pg4Him Posted July 16, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 347 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 370 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/20/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 16, 2019 The American church system isn’t much better. Money pours in from the elderly and the affluent professionals, many who have no children, so their church can spend half its budget on extravagant youth programs. Your tithes money goes to sound systems, projector screens, Easter egg hunts, conference tickets, and group study books from Bill Hybels. Then you tell your family/neighbors you have no extra cash to help them get their car fixed because you just pledged a thousand dollars on some new fundraiser at church. But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. — Mark 7:11-13 Give your extra money to some ethereal sense of ‘evangelism’ at church and leave your loved ones to fend for themselves. At least Bill Hybels made his fortune. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortangel Posted July 16, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 839 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 634 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/12/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 16, 2019 thank you for posting this I agree with you, there are many false teachers whinch are false that do request lots of money from their church members & also T.V. evangelists also do the same thing, what a shame 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalfTheWise Posted July 16, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 16, 2019 I'm in favor of healthy dialog on the biblical teachings about tithing and giving and what our priorities with regard to helping people should be. I personally think tithing is an OT concept and that our individual Christian economic life should be one of solid stewardship and frugality so as to maximize our liberty and ability to minister to others. The majority of Christians I know who tithe (including teachers who both support it and practice it themselves) do so out of good conscience because they believe the Bible teaches that it is something Christians should do. Dragging out an accusatory secular article and inflammatory image to give the impression that everyone associated with tithing is either a gullible fool or a greedy wolf is not really very helpful. After reading the linked article in the OP and doing a bit of research, my opinion is that the real question related to the article is this: are the Christians in Kenya mostly gullible fools who line the pockets of hucksters, or are they mostly an outstanding example of Christian giving which shocks even secular business analysts who cannot comprehend it and try to explain it away? I like to look at accusations in detail before jumping on board. One thing to note is that a Kenyan shilling is roughly equivalent to one US cent. Hence hundreds of millions of Ksh are millions of USD. The BT article also focuses primarily on ministries which have *published* financial details. There are many far larger ones which do not publish their financials. Overall, this article seems to be insinuating that giving to churches and ministries is a bad thing when it becomes too big. This article says NOTHING with regard to what type of educational, medical, and other types of facilities and ministries are being funded with this money. It's one thing if this money is going into someone's pocket. It's by far another if it is being used for both spiritual and social outreaches to meet both spiritual and physical needs. That article focuses on the amount of giving with little focus on the use of the giving. One of the featured offenders in the BT story is CITAM (Christ is the Answer Ministries). According to the BT article, CITAM (Christ is the Answer Ministries) in Kenya had an annual operating budget of about 1.5 billion Kenyan shillings a few years ago. This converts to about 15 million US dollars. According to the CITAM web site, they currently have about 45,000 attendance in 18 assemblies on Sundays. They run about 8 Christian schools, TV and radio stations, and what appears to be a conference or retreat center of some type. In addition, there are a large number of ministries that seem to be operating within each church along with missions outreach. My sense is that they emphasize involvement in small groups for spiritual growth. They have about 250 staff members. Is $15 million dollars far too exorbitant to run almost 20 churches, a handful of schools, and other ministries with 250 staff members? I don't know. But I think this is a better starting point to determine if this is an abuse of the gospel or a responsible use of resources than strongly reacting to click-bait headlines related to tithes and offerings of hundreds of millions in Kenya without even doing the currency conversion first. Here is an excerpt from the CITAM website on their history. The history of Christ is the Answer Ministries (CITAM) dates back to 1959 when Nairobi Pentecostal Church (NPC) was founded as a multi-racial church grounded in the Word of God and sound doctrine. The church was established as a ministry of Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada (PAOC). The initial services were held in a tent near Jeevanjee Street in Rahimtulla Hall. In September 1960, the church moved to Valley Road where the present CITAM Valley Road is located. In 2003 Nairobi Pentecostal Church changed its name to Christ is the Answer Ministries (CITAM) and was registered as an autonomous independent entity under the Societies Act of Kenya. The name of the ministry was changed to reflect the nature and the geographical spread which was beyond Nairobi. The focus of CITAM is urban ministry targeting English-speaking persons with an emphasis on outreach to young urban professionals. We have established mission stations among the unreached communities in Kenya and by 2016, had missionaries in East Timor, Romania, USA, Namibia and Burundi in keeping with the Church's strategy of impacting the world. By 2016, the beginning of the current strategic period, CITAM had a total of eighteen (18) assemblies: 7 located in Nairobi (Valley Road, Woodley, Parklands, Karen, Thika Road, Buruburu and Embakasi), 4 in the environs of Nairobi (Ngong, Kiserian/Rongai, Athi River and Thika Town), 4 in other towns (Kisumu, Nakuru, Eldoret, Kapsabet) 1 in Namibia and 2 out of Africa (Romania and USA). CITAM runs mission stations in Marsabit, Isiolo and Turkana counties, with an outreach to the Rendille, Borana, Burji, Gabra, Elmolo, Samburu and Turkana communities. CITAM‟s goal is to establish indigenous churches amongst the unreached people groups. Currently CITAM has seven (7) primary schools (Woodley, Buruburu, Athi River, Ngong, Nakuru, Kisumu and Eldoret), one (1) secondary school (Buruburu), Pan Africa Christian University and a Children‟s centre (Kiserian). CITAM Media comprises radio and TV stations which also stream online. The radio station, Hope FM, has become a premier station with a large listenership in Nairobi and its environs, Mombasa, Western Kenya and streaming to other parts of the world. The church has grown from a small assembly with a morning service attendance of about 20 to 30 people in 1959, to an estimated attendance of 45,000 by June 2015 and more than 250 regular staff. As I read this, my impression is of an effective Christian ministry that started out rooted within an urban, educated, and relatively wealthy demographic in Kenya that is now using their resources to extend gospel outreach to the uneducated and poorer parts of their country and others. It is potentially a good example of how a missions based ministry takes root and flourishes on its own apart from the original missions group. At this point, I'm more likely to take them at their word than the negative insinuations from a business news source that targets a ministry such as CITAM primarily because they are among the transparent ones which publish their financials for everyone to see. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted July 17, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,929 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 17 hours ago, Worship Warriors said: What can Abraham give to God! He was rich in livestock. I’ll give you 10% of all that I have as a token of the covenant that all I have is yours. Not at all, Abraham didnt give his rich livestock, he did gave 1/10 of the war spoils and only ONCE. Hebrew 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the apatriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristin Posted July 17, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 875 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 757 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/04/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2019 Yes. I fell for it and gave lots of money so I could receive. Sad. I receive in God’s way not mans way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted July 17, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,929 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said: the real question related to the article is this: are the Christians in Kenya mostly gullible fools who line the pockets of hucksters, or are they mostly an outstanding example of Christian giving which shocks even secular business analysts who cannot comprehend it and try to explain it away? Before we discuss the situation in Kenya let me ask you about this situation in America : Kenneth Copeland mentioned that he has rcvd over USD 1,3 BILLION (6 years ago) Listen for yourself, type at youtube page this wording: Kenneth Copeland boasts he is a billionaire https://www.pmnewsnigeria.com/2019/06/02/u-s-pastor-under-scrutiny-for-using-3-private-jets/ My question is : Could Copeland gather such a massive amount of money if people are to donate honestly without fear according to their willingness as Paul said it 2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. How much we can actually build humanity with the money he spent for the private jets ? God told us to feed the poor Lazarus but instead the church people is feeding a Billionaire life style pastor how about the forgotten Lazarus ? he remains forgotten because Jesus has said it. Many are proclaiming the threat of devouring grasshopper for those who do not pay tithe which create fear and force people to tithe out of fear. In the book of Malachi God actually spoke about tithe to the Hebrew in Israel not to the New Testament church established by Jesus Christ: Many rich churches are building Christian schools from their tithe but thats an expensive Christian schools built for profit not for the poor. Its just another way to make money by the church. https://www.nairaland.com/1472237/deception-malachi-3-10-11-devourer Edited July 17, 2019 by R. Hartono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted July 17, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,929 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 49 minutes ago, Kristin said: Yes. I fell for it and gave lots of money so I could receive. Sad. I receive in God’s way not mans way! A famous pastor with private jets in USA says in order to rcv millions we have to give millions. If you go fishing you can use bigger bait for bigger fish, is God a fish ? Jesus told a story of a poor widow who actually gave more than every body in Israel, did she/the widow become rich ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worship Warriors Posted July 17, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,220 Content Per Day: 1.18 Reputation: 4,858 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/18/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2019 Yes , there are lots of ministry out there that just want your money. But why not find a good church where you can give with confidence. You are giving to the LORD and you are bringing your all tithes and offering into his storehouse. God loves a cheerful giver. if you are only giving the 10%, then your heart must be very small. https://worshipwarriorsministry.com.au/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted July 17, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,929 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Worship Warriors said: Yes , there are lots of ministry out there that just want your money. But why not find a good church where you can give with confidence. You are giving to the LORD and you are bringing your all tithes and offering into his storehouse. God loves a cheerful giver. if you are only giving the 10%, then your heart must be very small. https://worshipwarriorsministry.com.au/ Show me a verse in the Bible where God asked for money ? If people can give 1 % with cheer because of their poverty why would you say his heart is small ? Edited July 17, 2019 by R. Hartono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worship Warriors Posted July 17, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,220 Content Per Day: 1.18 Reputation: 4,858 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/18/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, R. Hartono said: Show me a verse in the Bible where God asked for money ? If people can give 1 % with cheer because of their poverty why would you say his heart is small ? Jesus said to the young rich ruler, go and sell everything that you have and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. But he went away sad for he had great riches. The young rich ruler, his love for God was small. The love of money was his god. that's why the bible commands us to sow abundantly into the kingdom to stop greed taking hold of our hearts https://worshipwarriorsministry.com.au/ Edited July 17, 2019 by Worship Warriors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts