Jostler Posted July 25, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2019 31 minutes ago, 101G said: if they are distinct persons please reconcicle John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24, as to who "who made all things" read each verse and get back with me. PICJAG this is correct. he did not say in the name(s), indicading more than one person, he said, as you quotes, "IN THE NAME", no "s" at the end of Name. so by baptizing in the name, one person you have baptized in these three titles. and that NAME, not names is "JESUS". PICJAG. I'm really curious. Why is it so important to you that everyone understand this just exactly as you do? What makes this worth all the strife you are stirring up ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101G Posted July 25, 2019 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/13/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Jostler said: I'm really curious. Why is it so important to you that everyone understand this just exactly as you do? What makes this worth all the strife you are stirring up ? we're to speak the TRUTH, correct. then let's say what the Lord say. so are you read to reconcile John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24?. PICJAG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted July 25, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, 101G said: we're to speak the TRUTH, correct. then let's say what the Lord say. so are you read to reconcile John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24?. PICJAG. Exactly the same way I reconcile the creation account in Genesis, and Proverbs 8. And many other passages. Some pointedly demand understanding a form of separateness and distinction, while others point to oneness. One God manifest in three persons, still seems to be the best way to reconcile what appears to me to be beyond full comprehension from where we now stand. By doing all I know how to do to understand the Trinity by taking in the whole counsel of the Word. And accepting that witness as true even though I cannot fully comprehend it. There IS a difference. He IS One. Quote Pro 8:22-31 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of me In Proverbs 8 we find wisdom personified (in a feminine character no less), and comparing what is revealed here to the creation account Wisdom can be none other than Jesus. Present at Creation and through whom Father created everything. The Father's will, the Son's craftsmanship, and the Spirit's power, all working as one. I think your dogmatism is misplaced. This is not as simple as you make it, and there's a wealth of revelation in what you currently reject. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101G Posted July 25, 2019 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/13/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jostler said: Exactly the same way I reconcile the creation account in Genesis, and Proverbs 8. And many other passages. Some pointedly demand understanding a form of separateness and distinction, while others point to oneness. One God manifest in three persons, still seems to be the best way to reconcile what appears to me to be beyond full comprehension from where we now stand. By doing all I know how to do to understand the Trinity by taking in the whole counsel of the Word. And accepting that witness as true even though I cannot fully comprehend it. There IS a difference. He IS One. In Proverbs 8 we find wisdom personified (in a feminine character no less), and comparing what is revealed here to the creation account Wisdom can be none other than Jesus. Present at Creation and through whom Father created everything. The Father's will, the Son's craftsmanship, and the Spirit's power, all working as one. I think your dogmatism is misplaced. This is not as simple as you make it, and there's a wealth of revelation in what you currently reject. well why not think one Person, "shared" in flesh... (smile). now as wisdom, personified (in a feminine character). no problem it only describe a function, or a work. listen, Exodus 7:19 "And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone". Notice Aaron "hand". hand here is H3027 יָד yad (yawd) n-f notice it is a Feminine noun, but on a male person 1. a hand (the open one (indicating power, means, direction, etc.), in distinction from H3709, the closed one). see, this hand is on a male. understand hand is a "FUNCTION", or an ability. as in our Lord Jesus case he is WISDOM, and POWER. supportive scripture, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. the same one person. so the function has nothing to do with GENDER. just like we use to call or give our vehicles female name, why? because of the function, a female carries, so do a car. understand now?. again our doctrine is "share" -vs- your doctrine of separation of persons. PICJAG. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted July 25, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, 101G said: again our doctrine is "share" -vs- your doctrine of separation of persons. PICJAG. i really don't care what "our" doctrine is. I seek to understand His doctrine. And I trust He is THE Teacher, and well able to draw me into deeper and deeper understandings as I seek Him for that. You can reject me, revile me, do whatever you wish if you think I'm so wrong. You might even consider praying for me..... My hope is in Him. We understand things differently....so what? In Proverbs i see Wisdom/Jesus standing BESIDE Father, with Father delighting in Jesus and Jesus delighting in the prospect of creating men. There's a strong implication of different "persons" in that parable. Quote Pro 8:30-31 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. And that's far from an isolated example. Architect and Craftsman, and we see in Genesis that the Word John 1 describes went forth from the Father, and when He did the Spirit who prior to His going forth was "hovering".....but when the Word went forth He burst into activity with a force that sees creation expanding to this day.... There is a majesty in view here that is far greater than the limitations you place on it. All three persons who are One, had roles in Creation, and they are not the same. Edited July 25, 2019 by Jostler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101G Posted July 25, 2019 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/13/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jostler said: i really don't care what "our" doctrine is. I seek to understand His doctrine. And I trust He is THE Teacher, and well able to draw me into deeper and deeper understandings as I seek Him for that. You can reject me, revile me, do whatever you wish if you think I'm so wrong. You might even consider praying for me..... My hope is in Him. We understand things differently....so what? In Proverbs i see Wisdom/Jesus standing BESIDE Father, with Father delighting in Jesus and Jesus delighting in the prospect of creating men. There's a strong implication of different "persons" in that parable. And that's far from an isolated example. Architect and Craftsman, and we see in Genesis that the Word John 1 describes went forth from the Father, and when He did the Spirit who prior to His going forth was "hovering".....but when the Word went forth He burst into activity with a force that sees creation expanding to this day.... There is a majesty in view here that is far greater than the limitations you place on it. All three persons who are One, had roles in Creation, and they are not the same. you answered your own question. was not all things made was GOOD?. yes, God was delighted in creating men, male and female. Nothing was made unless he, JESUS, the Spirit made it, (see John 1:3). now we will pray for you, and to help you understand. yes, it was only one person who mand Man, (the male and the female), scripture, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female. well the Lord Jesus don't lie, he said, "he" made them. he is a single person designation, meaning only one person. to back this up, Mark wrote the same thing in context and he used "God" for "he" that Matthews used, listen. Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female". see, Mark used "God" where Matthesw used "he". so God is a "HE" one single Person. hope this helps. PICJAG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101G Posted July 26, 2019 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/13/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2019 GINOLJC, to all scripture, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD". but the TERM "God", H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') , seems to indicate a plurality, not in separate distinct persons, but maybe a plurality of one's own-self, which we will explain later. the bible clearly teaches that the Godhead is not a mystery, scripture. Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". ok, the bible, God by the apostle Paul said that he can be understood by the things that are made. and that we have "no excuse" at not knowing about his Godhead. notice the apostle addressed "GOD" as "him". take note of that. so to understand the Godhead we must go back to the beginning and see what was made, so we may understand God, by way of the term the Godhead. for the apostle said, "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them". ok who is the "THEM?". the man and the woman. let's see this in scriptures. Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth". the "us" and "our" seems to indicate a plurality in God. but here's the dilemma, in the very next verse, God said, this. Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". STOP, how did "us" and "our" in verse 26 go to "his" and "he" in the very next verse?. but the bible confirms this singularity of God here in the beginning at Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created". so the bible confirm what God said, in Genesis 1:27. but now we're going to solidify this singularity of God without any doubts. the Lord Jesus himself. scripture, Matthew 19:3 "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female". ok, Jesus, our Lord cannot lie. and Mark confirm that the "he" the Lord mention is in fact "GOD". listen, Mark 10:4 "And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. Mark 10:5 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. so the "he" in Matthew, is "God" in Mark which clearly confirm the singularity of God here in the beginning at Genesis 1 when God made Man and woman. but the fact that God don't lie, we must consider the statement God made in Genesis 1:26, this cannot be ignored. so what gives?. we know for sure the Lord Jesus who is God don't lie, so in essence neither God, the Spirit, nor the Lord Jesus, neither don't lie. may we make a suggestion. TIME, and MANIFESTATION. here's why we make these two suggestion. #1. the Lord Jesus,. in prayer, at John 17 said this, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". so clearly Jesus was before the world was, that placed him at Genesis 1:26 & 27. but Jesus himself said, "he", God, made them. but John 1:3 said this, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". the "him" here is the Word, (JESUS), now either we have a contradiction or a GREAT truth about to be revealed concering the Godhead. Jesus made all things, and he was alone in making all things. supportive scripture, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself". here is that singularity of God in the beginning. for there was one who CREATED, and MADE all things. it's the same PERSON. now here's the TRUTh either Jesus is God and have not yet MANIFESTED in the Flesh yet, which answer both of the two question. the time, or timing of his manifestation. or we have a dilemma on our hands. we say no dilemma, because we declare that Jesus is God in flesh, and we have scripture to back this up. Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come". that's our answer. he was to come, and when he come, he will manifest in flesh. so we can answer both question now. but we still must however answer how he is the Father and the son at the same time, while maintaining his singularity as one PERSON, but expressing himself as a plurality. THIS IS THE CHALLENGE. (which we will do by answering this question). for if he was a plurality in the beginning at Genesis 1 then the bible contridicts itself, (which it never do). so we must now find out from the beginning how God is a singularity, and yet to come as pluralityof his OWN-SELF. I believe we can answer that question. but before we do, we would like for your input on what we have said so far. PICJAG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 27, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,825 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,753 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 27, 2019 On 7/25/2019 at 3:22 PM, 101G said: you answered your own question. was not all things made was GOOD?. yes, God was delighted in creating men, male and female. Nothing was made unless he, JESUS, the Spirit made it, (see John 1:3). now we will pray for you, and to help you understand. yes, it was only one person who mand Man, (the male and the female), scripture, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female. well the Lord Jesus don't lie, he said, "he" made them. he is a single person designation, meaning only one person. to back this up, Mark wrote the same thing in context and he used "God" for "he" that Matthews used, listen. Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female". see, Mark used "God" where Matthesw used "he". so God is a "HE" one single Person. hope this helps. PICJAG. Genesis 1: 26, 27 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 2: 7 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2: 21,22, 23 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. John 1 New King James Version, verses 1, 2, 3, 4 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. John 1 New King James Version (NKJV) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. ----------- This is John 1: 3, and you wrote: # Nothing was made unless he, JESUS, the Spirit made it, (see John 1:3). You can see your departure from the scriptures... The disciple John he knew why he said the Word and not Jesus... In verse one and two, he is telling us first a lot about the Word, and then in verse three he is telling us what the Word did. John knows when Jesus was born....and when everything was created... Jesus knows that all those things were created before he was born... And it is interesting to see how you departed from the scriptures and you wrote, #he, JESUS, the Spirit made it, (see John 1:3). Not only you change the "Word" (for Jesus, but you added the Spirit made it) ----he, JESUS, the Spirit ....made it...and then you put the scriptures reference..John 1: 3... Without posting the scriptures...and this is not the first time....you have done this... It seems that there is an intent to mislead the reader that how the scriptures read.... You have done this in public and I have to bring this up in public, it would not be proper to do it privately... To say what you understand at this time in discussion is another thing...but to say that's what the scriptures say: when it is a departure is another thing... This is something that can be tested with scripture and that what I did...you should take a step back...and take a careful look into it... I stand to oppose you, I do not need to say mine , the disciples have said enough... We can reason together any time, it is always my good pleasure, and context...context and again context....many have misstep because they did not study carefully the context... God bless 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 27, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,825 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,753 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 27, 2019 John knew the Genesis book and how God made the world and man... John also knew that the Lord God of Israel is the Creator of all, including Adam... There must be a solid reason why John is introducing us to the term "the word"... Something came to mind..before going any further ... Genesis 1: 26, Let us make man in our likenesses... But that time It was the sixth day of creation when everything was made and it seems the time was right for God to make man as he had proposed from before he made the things that he made those six days.... He had put all things in place, for this proposed to make man.. We had the Heavens, and the Angels... Perhaps the rebellion in Heaven, for we see the fallen one stacking Eve in the Garden...and so on... John one is telling us about the "Word", God the Creator of all... He settles as who God the Creator was...and we see that he was not alone...a simple reading is enough to see that he came forth from God and that he was also God...not a powerful Angel... He was sent to execute the plan, he had the blew print..as we say: At the sixth day it was the time all have been waiting for: The Creation of man... He did not have to be alone, Angels may have been there, they were allowed on earth. . The Heavenly Father, he can see from Heaven, no need to step on earth.... And God created man, and everyone marvel.. First time they shaw man...what a glorious day that was.... The same thing as in John 3:16 God the Father, not the Father of Israel, their Lord God... Sent he own Son on a mission and he obey...knowing that this mission was asking for his death on the Cross.. The same thing or a similar situation at the beginning in Genesis, God the Father of all, sent his offspring the only offspring he had which John calls the "Word", and John knows why.... To create the world and man...and God the Word obey, knowing that the end of his mission would required his death on the Cross... Knowing before the foundation of the earth that one day after he had chosen Abraham. Isaac, Jacob and all his children, to Moses and to be their God...that he as the seed of the woman will be born as the EMANUEL...THEIR NEXT OF KEEN... The only one with the LIFE...for he new that the only one who had the LIFE after Adam lost it unto death it was only Him his God the Creator.. And he had to take him back..from Death and the Serpent...the Rebel the great Angel from Heaven.. If you want to spent some time, the Lord God knew at the time when he said the "the seed of the woman", that it was him, his coming mission, and the Devil also Knew. That is telling us as soon as God made Adam...je said to himself, and not only him but all the Angels and the Heavenly Father that one day the Creator will live everything to embraced the next step of his mission to look like Adam..to be the "Son of Man"... him to experience what Adam did not experienced to be carry in the womb of Mary for nine months... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101G Posted July 27, 2019 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/13/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 27, 2019 4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: # Nothing was made unless he, JESUS, the Spirit made it, (see John 1:3). You can see your departure from the scriptures... The disciple John he knew why he said the Word and not Jesus... In verse one and two, he is telling us first a lot about the Word, and then in verse three he is telling us what the Word did. John knows when Jesus was born....and when everything was created... GINOLJC, to all. First thanks for the reply, second, we must disagree with that assessment. and here's why. the WORD in John 1:1 is God, who is JESUS. Third, JESUS the Spirit is not Born. supportive scripture, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". did you see the term "WITH" there. it's the same term in John 1:1. to make it simple, it's the same person. how do we KNOW THIS? just read John 1:1c "and the Word was God". now what was BORN was FLESH, not SPIRIT. the Son of God was born, not the Son of man, big difference. 4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: And it is interesting to see how you departed from the scriptures and you wrote, #he, JESUS, the Spirit made it, (see John 1:3). Not only you change the "Word" (for Jesus, but you added the Spirit made it) ----he, JESUS, the Spirit ....made it...and then you put the scriptures reference..John 1: 3... Yes Jesus, the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, "MADE ALL THINGS". as we said before, in John 17 our Lord while praying said this, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." the Lord Jesus was before the world because he MADE the World. knowing that, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters". the Spirit of God is God. so it was the Spirit that made all things, back up scripture, Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life". Job said, the Spirit of God "MADE" me. but is not all things made by the WORD, who is JESUS, for John 1:3 states, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". and it was the Spirit that made us. and God is Spirit. knowing that the Term God in John 1:1 is the Spirit, for John 4:24a states, "God is a Spirit". so John 1:1 can be read as "in the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with the Spirit and the Word was Spirit. just exchanging the term God with Spirit, and we get the same result, JESUS is God who is Spirit. and at John 1:1 this Spirit was manifested in flesh, with blood. other words this is the Diversity of God in flesh. 4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: You have done this in public and I have to bring this up in public, it would not be proper to do it privately... YES, for the GOSPEL must be preached openly for all to hear. for faith come by HEARING. no, secret gospel here, for what's done in the dark will come to LIGHT. 4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: This is something that can be tested with scripture and that what I did...you should take a step back...and take a careful look into it... I stand to oppose you, I do not need to say mine , the disciples have said enough... We can reason together any time, it is always my good pleasure, and context...context and again context....many have misstep because they did not study carefully the context... Glad you saiud that, because god said the same thing before, Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool". see, we were all are sinners by nature, but God clean us up. now we may Speak his word no longer in mystery, but openaly in public. and yes, in context, for, Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Isaiah 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. Isaiah 28:12 "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken". with that said, let's reason together, and not fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. LET'S TELL THE TRUTH ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. We're looking forward to a good civil debate on this topic. this is what these Boards, or forums are design for. so let's keep the PEACE in the Name of the Lord Jesus. PICJAG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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