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The real barbarians are modern men


Nadjeschda

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I agree that @Nadjeschda is angrily casting aspersions on a culture she doesn’t understand. It is difficult to explain the American mindset to outsiders. Americans are actually quite generous, caring, and expressive, but we’re locked in a system. 

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I have a lot of American friends and I talked to them. And we never understand the concepts we use fully so of course I do not understand the US culture fully and there still will be millions of good Christs in that Country. But I slowly get a grasp what happened on average: the socialists seriously threatened you in the cold war and I can understand that you where angry. However anger is a surfire way to cut one’s spiritual connection with god. Now without this connection you are not able to correctly read and interprete Jesus teachings. Remember it is a gift of god and not an intellectual undertaking to understand him. Your hate against socialists let you find enemies everywhere. And because socialism stole some ideas from Jesus you „find“ socialism in Jesus now too - or better in those that want to remind you of his message. In an attempt to destroy socialism you pick the wrong target and destroy his message by constantly deluting it (which is a bit the fault of socialism too who tried to steal parts of that message). It‘s extremely frightening but this is exactly what I as a believer would expect hate to cause. I bow before god and his reasoning in this case - hate will never be a path to him. But I can not help you because this is neither a discussion about logic nor about politics. Unless you are able to see what hate does to you it will continue to impede that connection to god. Because I can not help you to find the right emotions I give up like I would give up before the atheists when they turn aggressive because they don‘t want to change.

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8 minutes ago, Nadjeschda said:

I have a lot of American friends and I talked to them. And we never understand the concepts we use fully so of course I do not understand the US culture fully and there still will be millions of good Christs in that Country. But I slowly get a grasp what happened on average: the socialists seriously threatened you in the cold war and I can understand that you where angry. However anger is a surfire way to cut one’s spiritual connection with god. Now without this connection you are not able to correctly read and interprete Jesus teachings. Remember it is a gift of god and not an intellectual undertaking to understand him. Your hate against socialists let you find enemies everywhere. And because socialism stole some ideas from Jesus you „find“ socialism in Jesus now too - or better in those that want to remind you of his message. In an attempt to destroy socialism you pick the wrong target and destroy his message by constantly deluting it (which is a bit the fault of socialism too who tried to steal parts of that message). It‘s extremely frightening but this is exactly what I as a believer would expect hate to cause. I bow before god and his reasoning in this case - hate will never be a path to him. But I can not help you because this is neither a discussion about logic nor about politics. Unless you are able to see what hate does to you it will continue to impede that connection to god. Because I can not help you to find the right emotions I give up like I would give up before the atheists when they turn aggressive because they don‘t want to change.

Do you think I hate Christians outside the US?

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1 hour ago, pg4Him said:

Do you think I hate Christians outside the US?

NO I don't dear sister .      You are loved dear sister .      Onward we go in the LORD .    

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5 hours ago, pg4Him said:

American Christians bemoan the horrible condition of our church system. We complain of dead churches, unregenerate believers, lack of Holy Spirit inspiration, and an overall sense of spiritual malaise. Yet, when you criticize any particular part of the church system, you get resistance. Somehow we are doing everything right while we complain that everything is wrong. 

Had to let that get said again .     How often do we hear me and some others rebuking and warning out againt many churches here in America .    And world wide for that matter .

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11 hours ago, Nadjeschda said:

Agrreed. But what does total surrender mean? Total surrender to Jesus for me does not mean that one repeats his words parrot style - but that you understand it by the heart and emotions which automatically would mean that you live after Jesus example of poverty. If you do not live after his example you might have understood his message in some weak intelectual way but not with the heart (you will propably not notice than, because only your heart could tell you the difference and that is already dead. It's a bit like emotional dementia: you dom't know what you  have lost). Religion is about saving your heart, the core of your soul from evil. In my eyes you can never be a full Christ and rhich at the same time. To combine this impossibly combination you have to kill part of your heart and part of your logic. The strongest form of Christianity hence does propably not live in the USA anymore, it lives in Africa. Furthermore in the USA there is a trend to combine religion with politics, namely capitalism. You can not serve two masters. Politics and religion should not be mixed but this is what the USA regularly does. With this mixing one devalues religion because one in reality secularizes it. Furthermore by capitalizing in this way on religion one shies away all those of oposing political views from Christianity and in my eyes everything that serves your more basic needs (capitalism  and politics is there to satisfy basic needs) AND increases atheism ath the same time is a great sin.


 

That is a very interesting philosophy.  To me total surrender is giving God all that I am and all that I have, and allowing Him to direct my life.  I have laid down my questioning, disputing and protesting.  I gave up being in charge of my life and have put on the mind of Christ.  I renew my mind daily by the washing of the word.  

 There is nothing in the Bible that says we must live in poverty, homeless with no change of clothes, no cell phone, no running water or even clean water, no heat and no work.   

 Joseph of Aramathea was a rich man who provided a tomb for Jesus.  We only must not LOVE money and pursue riches.  Being a Christian is not just following  Christ's outward example.  Nor is it a religion.   It is allowing Christ to live in us to serve, love and forgive others.  People who have set their minds on outward or earthly things are most likely not genuine Christians.

1Co 2:12  Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.  1Co 2:13  And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.  1Co 2:14  The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Moreover the Bible doesn't teach about the salvation of the heart. It speaks of the salvation of the soul. " 1Pe 1:9  obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls."  Nor does it teach that the heart is the center of the soul.  The Spirit is within the soul.  According to Scripture we must be spiritual people to understand these things.  

2Co 13:5  Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

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The dry bones lived

 

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1 hour ago, Willa said:

but that you understand it by the heart and emotions which automatically would mean that you live after Jesus example of poverty. If you do not live after his example you might have understood his message in some weak intelectual way but not with the heart (you will propably not notice than, because only your heart could tell you the difference and that is already dead. It's a bit like emotional dementia: you dom't know what you  have lost). Religion is about saving your heart, the core of your soul from evil. In my eyes you can never be a full Christ and rhich at the same time. To combine this impossibly combination you have to kill part of your heart and part of your logic. The strongest form of Christianity hence does propably not live in the USA anymore

Many people who do not live here in the USA have a very bigoted concept of this country.  A very small percent is born again and genuinely Christian.  Different surveys have found anywhere from 5% to 20% are Bible believing walking in the Spirit Christians.  Even our courts don't protect Christians anymore.  Organized crime is rampant here.  Even small communities are riddled by gangs and drugs.  This increase since the 50s is largely due to illegal immigration and the mobs infiltrating us from south of our border.  

The churches that teach prosperity are teaching a false gospel and are accursed.  On this forum we do have some homeless people, many are wracked with pain and chronic disabilities, or their spouse is, and most are in lower and lower mid income brackets.  Some have savings and investments which are necessary for our retirement, but most live from pay check to pay check.  Some work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay for a small apartment, utilities, transportation to and from job, food, modest clothing, required schooling supplies for family, and medications.

Many people who do not live here hate our country due to their bigotry, their preconceived notions.  Those who live here and hate our country need to move to another.  They only make our situation worse because they seek to undermine our government or overthrow it.  

I have seen more greed among people who live in poverty than in the middle income people.  Your insistence that to be genuine Christians we must give all our money to the poor is ridiculous.  Many of us on Worthy are poor to begin with.  Many who live just above the poverty level give sacrificially.   The key is to be content with whatever state we are in.  There is much godliness in contentment.  To condemn Christians here in the USA so vehemently is pure bigotry and does sound very hateful.

Mat 19:23  And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven.  Mat 19:24  Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."  Mat 19:25  When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"  Mat 19:26  But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

 

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8 hours ago, Willa said:

 There is nothing in the Bible that says we must live in poverty, homeless with no change of clothes, no cell phone, no running water or even clean water, no heat and no work.   

 

I am responding here several posts at once but this quote is the most important to me. To be good in a moral sense we need to sort information in a way that we are not drowned by the unimportant and the sidetracking especially when information seem to conflict. It's the key sign of the evil that they always find something that sounds related to the subject but is sidetracking us from main moral questions.

Jesus did not have a fixed home anymore when he dedicated himself to god so his lifestyle is comparable to the poorest today although they now have simple cell phones and so on so we should live as poor as the poor of our countries and times if we want to follow him.

In the case of the clothing Jesus mentioned that in the face of violence you should do this:
"If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also." If in the face of open injustice against you you should not cling to your cloths but in the face of poverty of someone else you should cling to them and be greedy? Greed is one of the seven sins (talking of important points highlighted unoverlookable in the bible so that they may not be overlooked). And no: it does not safe you that some poor people are greedy to; statistically the poor are less greedy because they donate more income than the rich. I am a thief because some other people are thieves too and that it is ok - or what is the logic of pointing to greed in others?

All the time you invested in buying, renting, decorating (!) said home is time lost for encountering Jesus and encountering god by encounterin his children in their suffering. I know that some sort of shelter is needed in cold climate but does your home really look like the shelter of a modern nun? Because there are lots of Christian traditions already on how to live poor and not die on the street.

The main feature of Satan is, that he gets very talky when he wants to reason himself out of his deeds. Jesus is tolerant to the rich to a certain degree - because he is Jesus, the most tolerant beeing ever in existance - but that does not mean that he wants us to emulate that lifestyle of said rich by tolerating our own greed. We should tolerate the rich too as we should be tolerant in general- but not in the moment where they dilute and destroy religion with false teaching. What then did Jesus die for when we do not listen to him? How sad must he be? So listen to him and FEEL what he says:

Mark 10:21-22

Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

Maybe you can go to heaven when you are not as extreme as this widow but I am pretty sure you get the corner furthest away from Jesus. If that is your true aim so be it.

Luke 6:20-21
Then he looked up at his disciples and said: ‘Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God...’ One can come to the kingdome of god by making oneself poor through donating hence :)

Mark 10:21-22
Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, ‘You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor (no qualification here into the lazy and the non believers and so on), and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’ When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Luke 16:19-25
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 

Luke 12:16-21
Then he told them a parable: ‘The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, ‘What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?’ Then he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, ‘Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God.’

And more.

I am shocked by the bigot judgmental, icecold way in which many in this forum threat the poor. While Jesus gives me warmth you give death and contempt. I have no heart whatsover for superficiality of religion of this sort. For me the heart is another word for the soul by the way. Attacking this is what we in Germany would call "splitting the hairs". Splitting the hairs has never led to any meaningfull spiritual insight. Would you exclude children or the mentally disbaled because they do not use every word as perfect- and sorry - dead - as you do? Tree of knowledge, knowledge of words, does that ring anything in you? I have friends in Africa and I see that they are still living their believe instead of wasting there time on splitting hairs and engaging in artful twisting of words. I will go for there guidance because you have nothing to teach me. I see that some people here agree and want to help me but I can not stand the level of ice of the rest. It's killing, freezening, poisoning.

For you the mentioining of sacrifices here is an empty word that sounds good but means nothing. What do you sacrfice to god? A candle? Or something like the last money of the widow - something that is really difficult to give away?

And that I can not talk on Americans because I am not one is an ad hominem attack again. Do you not talk about atheists because you are not one of them?! I am rolling on the floor with laughter when I see this degree of censorship. Welcome the opinions from others: from the outside of a house errors can be spotted that are not visible from the inside.

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46 minutes ago, Nadjeschda said:

What then did Jesus die for when we do not listen to him?

(snip)

Maybe you can go to heaven when you are not as extreme as this widow but I am pretty sure you get the corner furthest away from Jesus. If that is your true aim so be it.

 

These 2 parts of your post have me wondering about your beliefs. 

What do you believe Jesus died for?

What do you believe is the most important part of the message Jesus gave us?

How are people saved and get to heaven?

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