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The Pre-incarnate Christ

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The Bible has it all there for our understanding, but we must study and ask Gods help to understand to fully grasp the nature of Christ.

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder. and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

How can we understand this, the mystery of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, come in the flesh, and how a mere child, born like other children, could also be "The everlasting Father."

1 Corinthians 12:3
"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

The pre-existence of Christ or personal existence of Christ before his conception is shown in the Bible, but the Holy Ghost has to guide us. For some reason, this concept of Christ pre-incarnate or the pre-existence of Christ is very controversial, as people somewhat get confused with the "Title" which refers to Jesus or how He is shown such as the "First and the Last", the "Alpha and Omega" the "Holy One", the "Angel of the Lord". Now we must be clear, Jesus is NOT a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be and scripture shows existed before He became the earthly child of Mary.

Let us begin with the birth of Christ and we see in Matthew one of the titles, 'God with us'.

Matthew 1:23
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Just as the prophecy in scripture foretold that from the house of David he would come of a virgin birth......
Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Here it is clear that Christ is God, but immediately we are posed with a question that must be answered. Did the Father create or "procreate" another "God?" If He did, This would mean it would be a sin to worship Jesus, because it would violate the first commandment!
Now we also have this, "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10)

The first commandment says,
"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
On two different occasions John was inclined to worship an angel. He was told by the angel, "See thou do it not: I am a fellow servant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 19:10)
Worship of a creature was clearly prohibited in the Bible. Worship of the Creator was another matter and we see it time and time again that Jesus accepted worship and was worthy to be worshipped. Of the Canaanite woman it was said, "Then came she and worshipped Him..." (Matthew 15:25). When Thomas recognized Him as the risen Christ he said, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28), and the four and twenty elders give worship to the Creator, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Now in the resurrection the Bible tells us that men that are saved are equal to angels. "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."(Luke 20:36 )
Jesus was not equal to the angels He was equal to God, scripture repeatedly shows us this.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:(Philippians 2:6)
If we look further to the context in Philippians 2:5-8, we understand clearly what Paul is saying:

Talking of Jesus Christ, . . .'who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.'

Clearly, Paul shows that he believes that Jesus had existed as a divine Being before His birth, and that He volunteered to divest Himself of much of His glory, power, and prerogatives to become a lowly human being and to die to redeem humanity from its sins. Then we see the following in Hebrews which shows of Christ, 'angels of God worship him' and God says to the Son or Christ, 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever', so scripture lays out the path that the Holy Ghost can guide us into understanding.

"4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.."(Hebrews 1:4-8).

So you have to look at this issue of worship first, as God alone is entitled to supreme reverence and worship and man is forbidden to give to any other object the first place in his affections or his service or worship. So to worship any other is a sin, but then we have the mystery of the Godhead as Christ was not brought into existence, rather He always existed as one with the Father. We see Christ as the Creator, as Jehovah, as the Great I AM, and appeared in different ways more than fifty times in the Old Testament before coming as flesh in the New Testament.

For any creature to claim the right to be worshipped is blaspheme. In fact the Jews falsely accused Jesus of this. "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."(John 10:33 ) Notice these scriptures that show Jesus was worshipped.

Matthew 2:11 "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh."

Matthew 8:2 "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."

Matthew 9:18 "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live."

Matthew 14:33 "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Matthew 15:25 "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me."

Matthew 28:9 "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."

Matthew 28:17 "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted."

Mark 5:6 "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Luke 24:52 "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:"

John 9:38 "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."

Rev 5:14 "And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Then we have Jesus Himself showing us how He existed prior to the Incarnation and His role, it was not hidden, it is right there in the Bible. Speaking to the Jews, Jesus told them:

John 8:56
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY day: and he saw it, and was glad."

The Jews were absolutely amazed at what Jesus sad, because Jesus was only in His early thirties, they could not ponder how He possibly have been alive in Abrahams day, so they reacted.

John 8:57-58
"57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

The Jews understood what was being declared, Jesus equating Himself with the eternal I AM. As the next verse says, "59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him". Jesus was directly and actively involved in the creation of man. Indeed you find in Genesis, God said...

Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness (Genesis 1:26)

Then there is a prediction of Christ's redemptive work on the cross in Genesis 3:15 :
"And I will put enmity between you (the serpent) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise Him on the heel."

Christ was there at the beginning, from eternity, He is Jehovah God, God with us.

Colossians 2:9
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

 

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Joh 1:1  AMP   IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [Isa 9:6]

Joh 1:2  He was present originally with God.

Joh 1:3  All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

Joh 1:14  And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth. [Isa 40:5]

 

Php 2:5  Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]  Php 2:6  Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,  Php 2:7  But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

 

Col 1:15  [Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.

Col 1:16  For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him.

Col 1:17  And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together). [Pro 8:22-31]

 

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The pre-extant Yeshua can be seen in many Hebrew writings and in our Tanach. The 'second Yahweh' features well in many accounts and we know that He was The Instrument of the Creation.

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Jesus has existed since the beginning.  In John 3:16, it is written that “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.”  ....And our Omnipotent God, in His eternal plan of salvation, did this from before the foundation of the world.  In John 3:16, Jesus has not been crucified yet.  The fact is that Jesus was always the gift of God.  God loved us then and He loves us today and will love us through all eternity.  Amen! DA8341CC-6BB4-4B4B-BB09-79D85631BD7E.gif.ce657db6f23cdfc1e69e1aecdefaede1.gif

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YASHUA/Jesus has always existed with GOD, but not in HUMAN Form as we got to know Him.

Jesus was first a Thought/mental Concept, then God's Spoken Word,  then made Flesh/a Person and is NOW SPIRIT at the right Hand of God His Father.....and we can have access to and through Him  and communicate with Him at all times Eph 2v18....let us not limit His Power in any way !!!  Praise and Glory be to our GOD !

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Posted (edited)

Sometimes the limitations of our language / communications skills places us in needless quandaries.

When studying or teaching the triune nature of the one God (the Trinity) I found it best to go back to the clinical

beginning of the discussion.

God individual A

God individual B

God individual C

The Bible makes the clear distinction between the three individuals (I use the term individual since some antagonists

stir up needless debate over the term "person" equating it with the son of someone).

Yet all three are Holy, all three are Spirit. But all three are not who we call the Holy Spirit.

Each is A Father of something, yet not all three are THE Father we refer to when speaking to or about the Heavenly Father.

See?

Our limited language and communications skills sometimes muddies the waters or fuels the vigor of antagonists or cultists.

John 1:14b clues us in on how to discern the differences between the three (i.e. the unique things each of them do or don't do).

Jesus is the ONLY begotten of the Father.  That means no one else is. Yet Luke 3:38 clearly says Adam was the son of God.  Jesus

called his Father "our Father" in the so-called  Lord's prayer. In John 20:17 he said as much. What gives?

Jesus is clearly the Creator of Genesis 1:1 (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Hebrews 1:2, ISAIAH 44:24 ← says he did it all alone / by himself).

So, Jesus is the everlasting Father of creation. Adam is the son of God the Word.

God the Word (John 1:1) was with God the Father (1 John 1:2) and God the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2). But he acted alone in creation (Isaiah  44:24).

The Holy Spirit is the Father of the Bible (2 Peter 1:20-21).

The Heavenly Father is the Father of Jesus...

Hebrews 10:5–7 (AV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

So how are we children of the Heavenly Father? Adoption through faith in his only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:15 (AV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


When you go back to the clinical and attribute to each individual their unique office etc. it all makes a lot more sense.

Edited by JohnD

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Very interesting  JohnD.....how do you read

James 1v18 Of his own will 'begat he us with the word of truth, 'that we should be a kind of 'firstfruits of his creatures. Also Eph 1v13, 14

There is only  'ONE ONLY begotten Son'  but it seems that we also are 'begotten but in a different way. 

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Did not Jesus speak the worlds into existence?  He is also no longer spirit as I understand. He became and will remain a body. We will be a Body like him. I think we don’t really understand the true sacrifice God did. It’s beyond the cross. It’s eternal. He changed part of Himself to be a permanent model for us. 

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