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R. Hartono

The Roman Catholic Church is not included in Jesus message to the 7 churches of Revelation

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31 minutes ago, Spock said:

Of course the messages were to those specific churches, but we all know, to have any real relevance one would have to go much much deeper to see the complete significance. 

Each of those 7 churches represent ALL churches of all time and I believe God threw  us a bonus....they each primarily represent a period of time chronologically...beginning with Ephesus being the church immediately after the resurrection and ending with Laodicea, the last church, “primarily” representing the present age.  As a side note, many scholars believe this represents the time frame from about 1750-1900 where many great revivals took place led by Moody, Finney, Wesley, and Whitefield, and William Carey (India, China, etc). And guess what else happened during this time frame? America gained its Independence from Great Britain. Interesting, don’t you think?

For those interested, many scholars believe the RCC church is clearly shown in the Church of Thyatira, and that that period pretty much covers the Dark Ages, 606-1520. All kinds of horrible atrocities were in that period as you probably know...Crusades and Inquisitions just to name a few. But of course, the RCC really got started with Constantine in 312. The Church of Pergamos probably covers a period of 312-606. 

Disclaimer: None of these time periods are etched in stone, but are merely guidelines for your consideration. 

Now that shows me (again) how awesome our God is to make the message to those 7 churches so real to every believer of all time and all places. 

I believe we can learn from the warnings to the churches much as a person can learn from the consequences of another person's actions, yes. The messages from Jesus to the seven churches said, "I like this, but I don't like that. Fix it or this will happen.". I think we can all learn from that. I think it's really that simple. I'm not looking for modern churches in that message. I'm just looking at my church and asking if my particular, local congregation is guilty of any of the things that were called out in Revelation, and then try to fix it.

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1 minute ago, Still Alive said:

I believe we can learn from the warnings to the churches much as a person can learn from the consequences of another person's actions, yes. The messages from Jesus to the seven churches said, "I like this, but I don't like that. Fix it or this will happen.". I think we can all learn from that. I think it's really that simple. I'm not looking for modern churches in that message. I'm just looking at my church and asking if my particular, local congregation is guilty of any of the things that were called out in Revelation, and then try to fix it.

Mind me asking.....so how is your local church doing? 

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3 minutes ago, Spock said:

Mind me asking.....so how is your local church doing? 

It's doing really, REALLY well. We moved here from Seattle 8 years ago and checked out a lot of churches before settling on this one. We even attended two for about a year or two each. I call this a "goldilocks" church. It's not "progressive" in the negative way, but the people are not dogmatic, either. When I share my position on CI (I'm an annihilationist), rather than getting angry red faces and yelling back, I got reasonable discussion and some even privately acknowledged they agreed with me. It's  "Christian" denomination church, BTW.

The church is very active in the local community and is now the only one involved in jail ministry, of which I am now a part. It's a small town in the heart of Kentucky, BTW. 

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49 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

It's doing really, REALLY well. We moved here from Seattle 8 years ago and checked out a lot of churches before settling on this one. We even attended two for about a year or two each. I call this a "goldilocks" church. It's not "progressive" in the negative way, but the people are not dogmatic, either. When I share my position on CI (I'm an annihilationist), rather than getting angry red faces and yelling back, I got reasonable discussion and some even privately acknowledged they agreed with me. It's  "Christian" denomination church, BTW.

The church is very active in the local community and is now the only one involved in jail ministry, of which I am now a part. It's a small town in the heart of Kentucky, BTW. 

Awesome!  Glad to hear, especially the part of the jail ministry.

My wife was born in Louisville so we have visited several times and I used to visit relatives in Lexington when much younger, but those are two bigger cities, not small towns. That is my knowledge of KY. 

Just so I am clear on what you said, you believe the scripture teaches unredeemed man (save the evil trinity) are not tortured forever in hell , but their life (soul) has an ending point. Is that correct?  By the way, I see this strongly supported in the word too.

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5 minutes ago, Spock said:

Awesome!  Glad to hear, especially the part of the jail ministry.

My wife was born in Louisville so we have visited several times and I used to visit relatives in Lexington when much younger, but those are two bigger cities, not small towns. That is my knowledge of KY. 

Just so I am clear on what you said, you believe the scripture teaches unredeemed man (save the evil trinity) are not tortured forever in hell , but their life (soul) has an ending point. Is that correct?  By the way, I see this strongly supports in the word too.

Not only yes, but It's covered in the link in my signature below. It's a big deal to me because I believe the teaching of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) actually damages the Christian message. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

LORD JESUS DID NOT SEND ANY MESSAGE TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WHO CLAIMED AS THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER. IN OTHER WORDS THERE IS NO CONFIRMATION FROM JESUS.

And there is found no Candlestick or Stars for another but for the 7 churches only.

7_churches.jpg

 

7-golden-candlesticks-revelations-bible.jpg

There were no denominations at that time...just locations of the church of God. But there is always a prophetic dimension to the words of the Lord. The 7 churches are there as examples of what to do, and what to avoid. They are exhortations to the various churches at different stages of church history.

So then if you would see the 7 churches as church periods then Thyatira represents the RC church.

The 4 last churches are still here when Jesus returns as it says at the end...hold fast till I come...a statement which begins with Thyatira...a statement which is lacking in the first 3 churches.

Sardis represents the reformation churches...Protestant.

Then there are the last 2 churches that either put an emphasis on fellowship and love...Philadelphia....or self-serving doctrines (indoctrination and "followship")...Laodicea.

 

Edited by Pekoudah
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40 minutes ago, Spock said:

Of course the messages were to those specific churches, but we all know, to have any real relevance one would have to go much much deeper to see the complete significance. 

Each of those 7 churches represent ALL churches of all time and I believe God threw  us a bonus....they each primarily represent a period of time chronologically...beginning with Ephesus being the church immediately after the resurrection and ending with Laodicea, the last church, “primarily” representing the present age.  As a side note, many scholars believe this represents the time frame from about 1750-1900 where many great revivals took place led by Moody, Finney, Wesley, and Whitefield, and William Carey (India, China, etc). And guess what else happened during this time frame? America gained its Independence from Great Britain. Interesting, don’t you think?

For those interested, many scholars believe the RCC church is clearly shown in the Church of Thyatira, and that that period pretty much covers the Dark Ages, 606-1520. All kinds of horrible atrocities were in that period as you probably know...Crusades and Inquisitions just to name a few. But of course, the RCC really got started with Constantine in 312. The Church of Pergamos probably covers a period of 312-606. 

Disclaimer: None of these time periods are etched in stone, but are merely guidelines for your consideration. 

Now that shows me (again) how awesome our God is to make the message to those 7 churches so real to every believer of all time and all places. 

I see we read, study and understand the duel meanings and progression of the church age the same way. It even answers the question of "why" Jesus picked those particular seven churches as examples. I'd like to add a little more detail than you did for consideration, but I'd probably be wasting my time. I will say unequivocally; the deeper we study God's word, there's much more there to be discovered. The Bible is amazing; it's written with such simplicity a child can read and understand it. Yet is so complex, structured and detailed; there seems to be no end of what can be gleaned from it. With the passage of time and hindsight, looking back at history and comparing it to scripture: WOW! Looking at the events and culture of the present world today and the prophetic scripture yet to be fulfilled on the horizon,.. It's awe inspiring!

A secular humanist or atheist with some historical knowledge; that sat down with no preconceived notions and an open mind, and read the Bible from cover to cover; would have to come to only one conclusion; the Bible was written 'outside of time'. That someone is the Alpha and Omega, that knows the beginning from the end. Human reasoning alone should verify there's a God; much less what we witness in creation, nature and all that is required just to sustain life on this planet. 

I wonder if not only God's chosen people (the Jew's) have been blinded in part, but many gentiles also. If this is not a part of the 'strong delusion' and 'believing the lie' God is going to send?  

 

Clock.jpg

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This is a fallacious appeal to ignorance. It is an informal fallacy. Think for a second about claims to the church's. Let's take Ephesus and the claim that if they persevere they will rule with an iron scepter and share Jesus's throne. Do we think that no other church except the one at Ephesus will rule and reign with Christ?

 

When we interpret scripture we need to have a serious graps of context and genre. We need to interpret the fuzzy in light of the clear passages. We need Internet the content in light of its style. We need to understand that revelation is progressive in nature. 

There re is much work to do in order to understand what a first century audience would have understood out of Revelation. I would use a deeper understand of the text from Ceaseria where Jesus says, "Upon this rock I will build my church," if you want to undercut the Catholic argument of papal succession. Couple that with the fact that James seems to be leading not Peter, very early on, and Paul's opposing Peter to his face for withdrawing from eating with the Gentiles in Galatia, and Peter as pope will be a hard sell!

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I'm failin' ta see the point of this topic.

Just my two bits,  JJ

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2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I see we read, study and understand the duel meanings and progression of the church age the same way. It even answers the question of "why" Jesus picked those particular seven churches as examples. I'd like to add a little more detail than you did for consideration, but I'd probably be wasting my time. I will say unequivocally; the deeper we study God's word, there's much more there to be discovered. The Bible is amazing; it's written with such simplicity a child can read and understand it. Yet is so complex, structured and detailed; there seems to be no end of what can be gleaned from it. With the passage of time and hindsight, looking back at history and comparing it to scripture: WOW! Looking at the events and culture of the present world today and the prophetic scripture yet to be fulfilled on the horizon,.. It's awe inspiring!

A secular humanist or atheist with some historical knowledge; that sat down with no preconceived notions and an open mind, and read the Bible from cover to cover; would have to come to only one conclusion; the Bible was written 'outside of time'. That someone is the Alpha and Omega, that knows the beginning from the end. Human reasoning alone should verify there's a God; much less what we witness in creation, nature and all that is required just to sustain life on this planet. 

I wonder if not only God's chosen people (the Jew's) have been blinded in part, but many gentiles also. If this is not a part of the 'strong delusion' and 'believing the lie' God is going to send?  

 

Clock.jpg

You mention the “strong delusion” that awaits the earth dwellers.....I have been looking at this long and hard for many years.....it still don’t feel any wiser for it. Lol

My current thinking is that it is tied to the revealing of the antichrist a few verses above the part where God brings this delusion, so I’m thinking it has something to do with God “Helping” these earth dwellers to believe in whatever verbiage the AC is spouting off to promote his authority. 

I know many watchers today believe this delusion will be tied to aliens, so perhaps that is the message the AC is using for the disappearance of the believers.  “Aliens did it!”  

Just thinking out loud....

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