Bawcash Posted July 22, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 69 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2019 How do I answer this question without falling back to the free will cop out answer? If God is omniscient and loves us the why did he create us knowing that we would fall, therefore knowingly condemning countless souls to hell for all eternity. That is not a very loving thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthebaptist Posted July 22, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.31 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Bawcash said: How do I answer this question without falling back to the free will cop out answer? If God is omniscient and loves us the why did he create us knowing that we would fall, therefore knowingly condemning countless souls to hell for all eternity. That is not a very loving thing to do. That isn't how it works. When we repent of our sin, the Lord forgives us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Petros Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) See if what I say here might help you as this is a profound subject. Why did God bother with it all in the first place? I will try a systematic approach with what I hope are no trite answers, for the very wisest of us only "see through a glass darkly" . !) The first answer is, no one knows why He, the triune creator set this creation ball rolling. It was a decision He made within Himself, and for us it seems very strange as that part of the creation that was destined to fall and corrupt everything, while all the time He had planned for the restoration of the elect. We will never get our heads around this on earth, and when in Heaven, I suspect it won't matter any more. He willed it! 2) It is He who has placed in the Lambs book of life those names destined for Salvation from the very beginning, and it is He who gives us the faith to believe in the first place in the Manifested second person of the Godhead. Very mysterious. 3) There can be no doubt, that God has made some vessels for glory with Him, and some for destruction, as the potter of everything! If it were not so, then all would be saved, and the plan would not have been needed in the first place. If God wanted all saved, then all would be saved, but they are not. It never surprises me that God has chosen some under His own council to save and restore, as much as to why He would save anybody at all, for we have all sinned and fall short of the divine standard. Gets curiouser and curiouser don't you think, and yet wonderful at the same time. 4) You often hear it said that this is not fair, and that statement is right, it is not fair. who said God is fair? He is not fair, He is God, and Heaven is not a democracy. God is King of all, an absolute monarch beside whom there is no other, and a sole theocratic King at that. He hates, He loves, He kills, He heals, He tests, He rejects, He saves, and He judges. He is God, and a not always benign one at that. The problem is with us, who want to make Him in our image. This is futile. 5) Free will in the final analysis is for us to do and be what He has decreed we will do and be. John Calvin, in my view and understanding one of the deepest thinking reformers put it this way as far as us receiving salvation and new life in Christ. He said that when we are saved, it is because God has given us what John called, " A DOSE OF IRRESISTIBLE GRACE". Wonderful isn't it, and all done by Him, even though the why is unfathomable. As a theology student years ago, we were constantly thinking about the very thing you have raised here. There are many views on this as you can imagine, but what I have written here can be shown from the scriptures. I think I should stop there, and if you have a question or two with the above, will love to discuss more with you. Thank you lord for your wonderfully comprehensive plan of Salvation, even though this side of eternity we only see darkly the reasons why???? Edited July 22, 2019 by Petros After thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted July 22, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.98 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2019 Calvin has little if anything to do with this. Calvin was not a nice person if you read about him and his actions. Father God had a family of spirits called the sons of god. (Job) He decided to have a family of humans as well. (some of His higher spirit sons did not like that idea and rebelled) (Psalm 82) Really simple and very well explained in the Tanach and the apostles' writings. It is what The Lord High God wants for His pleasure and He bent over backwards to make sure His plan would work. It is working well and He is totally committed to it. He has NO plan 'b'. It is plan A all the way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr3032 Posted July 22, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 332 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 273 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/23/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2019 As for why creation even became a thing, none of us know. As for falling, why did God put a tree containing the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil in Eden? Why did God leave the nations about Israel, rather than outright destroying them? As tests. God loves everyone, but not everyone loves God. People can paint him as some big giant meaniehead in the clouds, where even just for glancing at a woman's unmentionables for a split second leaves you to eternal damnation, and there is jack squat you can do about it - but such a view comes from people who lack understanding. They speak of God's love and mercy for a reason - It is a gift that not everyone accepts. They forget that sins can be forgiven when someone repents of them. Largely because of the idea of "self-will" and focus on the self, people don't like the idea of not being in control of themselves. Time and time again, in movies and shows, you have figures that act as "God" and then you have the protagonists screeching about how their life is their own and so they work to destroy this big bad meaniehead in the clouds they call "God". God is not a meaniehead. He has his arms open. It's just that there are people unwilling to go into those arms, either out of ignorance/fear or they do not wish to forsake their sinful ways. They damn themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pg4Him Posted July 22, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 347 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 370 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/20/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2019 ask a dozen people and you’ll get a dozen answers. My own personal answer would probably go over like a lead balloon here, so I will let others provide answers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Petros Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Sonshine☀️ said: Greetings, Petros… God is fair and oh so gracious to us. Isaiah 30:18 King James Version (KJV) 18 And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the Lord is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him. Yes, well if simplistic is what will satisfy you, what more can I say. God is gracious to those He chooses to be gracious to, but not to all .Some vessels He has made for destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Petros Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Sonshine☀️ said: Greetings again … “simplistic” does not satisfy me; the Word of God does. Blessings… 1 minute ago, Sonshine☀️ said: Greetings again … “simplistic” does not satisfy me; the Word of God does. Blessings… Yes, I came back on because having read what I said earlier, it seemed to sound a bit harsh of me on reading again, which was not my intention at all. You must walk according to the light you have as we all do. We are all at different stages and experience, so best wishes to you, and sorry if seemed harsh before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted July 22, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.98 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2019 16 minutes ago, Petros said: Yes, well if simplistic is what will satisfy you, what more can I say. God is gracious to those He chooses to be gracious to, but not to all .Some vessels He has made for destruction. That is a really horrible thought. It is not the God that I have experience of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bawcash Posted July 22, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 69 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) WOW! After reading the replies I am so glad that my faith was formed at a very young age because I think if it hadn't, the arguments I am seeing here for believing in God and the Bible are about as convincing as UFO and Bigfoot stories. Edited July 22, 2019 by Bawcash 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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