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The pre-wrath and pre- trib rapture views


kenny2212

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On 8/1/2019 at 11:33 PM, The Light said:

Mark 13

13 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Mark 13 can help clarify Matthew 24

Matt 24:1-6 has not occurred yet. There are still stones, one upon another.

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The Temple is long gone brother, the Western Wall was a part of the Gentile Court. The diaspora happened 2000 years ago, this was all something Jesus pointed towards because of Israel rejecting him/God. 

On 8/1/2019 at 11:33 PM, The Light said:

Matt 24:7-14 is not the Church age, it has not occurred yet.

Of course it has brother, Jesus told the Disciples they were going to be killed. In my opinion, this shows how people who go off kilter even a hairsbreadth, can go down cul de sacs. We have to read the whole chapter and follow the logistics of all the clues. Way too many people want Matthew 24:1-14 to be about the Rev. 6 judgments, when its not, thus they get caught up in trying to force it to be such. I spent months on an Exegesis on Matthew 24.

Matt. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

The very first question was about THE TEMPLE thus When will these things be ? so the first answer is thus about the Temple in verses 4-6. Thus JESUS ANSWERED, he then informs HIS DISCIPLES THESE THINGS !! Hence the notion as highlighted in DARK GREEN above, people tend to overlook these small but relevant details, thus he said UNTO THEM.....Take heed that no man DECEIVE YOU {Disciples}, for many will come in MY NAME {As the Messiah, not Jesus but as the Political Savior as the Jews saw it.....but Jesus was of course their Salvation}.

These false christs deceive many people including the Pharisees, thus fulfilling John 5:43 where Jesus told the Pharisees/religious leaders that they would not accept him who came in the Father's name, but would accept ANOTHER who came in his own name [as the christ]. The Pharisees were very intelligent in many ways, they knew that Rome was the Fourth Beast and thus right around 70 AD they expected this "Political Leader" to show up and "SAVE THEM" from the Fourth Beast. They did not believe a man could be the Son of God.

Then Jesus says in DARK GREEN again.....YE {Disciples} shall hear wars and rumours {70 AD Event} but Jesus tells the Disciples, DON'T BE TROUBLED, because all these things must come to pass......BUT THE END IS NOT YET !! And in another chapter he says the end is BY AND BY. So he's telling HIS DISCIPLES what to look for in the future, and this is very important unto them, because th 70 AD Event reads just like the Zechariah 14:1-2 events at the end of the world, and the reason is, if the Jews had of accepted Jesus then all of the end time events would have happened in 70 AD, but God suspended the 70 Week Judgment on Israel, because this can not come to pass until the JEWS repent !! Thus that will happen after the Rapture and before the Second Coming............BY AND BY...........Then Jesus starts telling HIS DISCIPLES about the 2000 some odd year Church Age in verses 7-14.

Matt. 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So let's go over this portion of the passage line by line or verse by verse.

Verse 7 leads into verse 8 which tells us these are the beginning of SORROWS !! What does Sorrows mean ? Birth Pangs !! And thus its not THE BABY, but the signs of the Baby on the way, they get more and more frequent, until THE BIRTH HAPPENS, but the Sorrows can NEVER be about THE BABY, it can only be about the FREQUENCY RATE OF THE SIGNS !! Thus this passage can never be about the 70th week or Tribulation Period and it can only be about the Church Age that leads unto the 70th Week Tribulation period. So we get the details about the 2000 some odd year Church Age which BIRTHS the 70th week Judgment period, and the Disciples are told what will happen unto them in verses 9-10. So the Church Age will have many wars {CHECK}, and much Famine/Pestilence/Earthquakes {CHECK} etc. etc. Jesus then tells his Disciples that they would be killed or Martyred and thus hated by all nations. 

Now we get into POST DISCIPLE TERRITORY........And MANY FALSE PROPHETS will arise........Notice the THREE MENTIONS of false christs and false prophets ? They are three distinct time periods within the chapter....Verse 5 is about the 70 AD false christs the Pharisees put forth hoping to "BE SAVED" from Rome or the Fourth Beast.  Verse 11 is about the 2000 some odd year Church Age and the many, many, MANY COMING False Preachers and Teachers of which we we have seen many of them ourselves {LOL}, like Robert Tilton, David Koresh, Jim Jones etc. etc., well you get the point. Then verse 24 tells us about THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet.  It's three distinct time periods. Now back to verses 7-14, the Church Age Period. 

Iniquity/Sin will abound, we see that now, over a billion abortions worldwide is pure evil, the acceptance of perversions abound !! Thus many people are cold hearted today in general, if one tells them that abortion is murder, they will retort.......PLEASE, TALK TO THE HAND !! Jesus then tells them, LOOK, He that endures will gain Heaven. Jesus means he that endures all of these troubles via one's LIFESPAN.....not the 70th week troubles, because the Tribulations are not mentioned until verse 15.

Then in verses 15-31 we of course get the rest of the signs that start during the Tribulation or 70th week period.

Just remember, the BABY {Tribulation Period} can't be around until the Sorrows {Birth Pangs} are over. 

Edited by Revelation Man
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22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:
Quote

The Temple is long gone brother, the Western Wall was a part of the Gentile Court. The diaspora happened 2000 years ago, this was all something Jesus pointed towards because of Israel rejecting him/God.

We are not talking about the diaspora, we are talking about the buildings of the Temple

Matt 24

24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Did Jesus say, see ye not ALL these things or did He say, see ye not SOME of these things.

 

Quote

Of course it has brother, Jesus told the Disciples they were going to be killed. In my opinion, this shows how people who go off kilter even a hairsbreadth, can go down cul de sacs. We have to read the whole chapter and follow the logistics of all the clues. Way too many people want Matthew 24:1-14 to be about the Rev. 6 judgments, when its not, thus they get caught up in trying to force it to be such. I spent months on an Exegesis on Matthew 24.

You seem to be confusing Luke 21 with Matthew 24. Check the setting of each. See who Jesus is talking to in both these chapters.


 

Quote

 

Matt. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

The very first question was about THE TEMPLE thus When will these things be ? so the first answer is thus about the Temple in verses 4-6.

 

Jesus did answer the question about the buildings of the Temple. He said see ye not ALL these things. He said there would not be one stone upon another. The fact that we can see one stone upon another, of all those things, should be proof enough. Jesus is talking about the last days. To prove it further:

Mark 13

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

In verse 4 Jesus is asked and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

So if you say these verses are fulfilled, what was the sign when all these things were fullilled.  Jesus is talking about the buildings of the temple.

 

We can also look at Luke 21

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

So again I ask, if these things are fulfilled (there is not one stone upon another) WHAT WAS THE SIGN WHEN THESE THINGS CAME TO PASS?

 

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

 

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On 8/2/2019 at 12:12 PM, Revelation Man said:
Quote

 Thus JESUS ANSWERED, he then tells HIS DISCIPLES !! Hence the notion as highlighted in DARK GREEN above, people tend to overlook these smail br relevant details, thus he said UNTO THEM.....Take heed that no man DECEIVE YOU {Disciples}, for many will come in MY NAME {As the Messiah, not Jesus but as the Political Savior as the Jews saw it.....but Jesus was of course their Salvation}.

Then Jesus says in DARK GREEN again.....YE {Disciples} shall hear wars and rumours {70 AD Event} but Jesus tells the Disciples, DON'T BE TROUBLED, because all these things must come to pass......BUT THE END IS NOT YET !! And in another chapter he says the end is BY AND BY. So he's telling HIS DISCIPLES what to look or in the future, and this is very important unto them, because th 70 AD Event reads just like the Zechariah 14:1-2 events at the end p the world. and the reason is, if the Jews had of accepted Jesus then all of the end time events would have happened in 70 AD, but God suspended the 70 Week Judgment on Israel, because this can not come to pass until the JEWS repent !! Thus that will happen after the Rapture and before the Second Coming............BY AND BY..........

 

Your argument about Jesus saying YE referring to His Disciples quickly falls apart when you continue reading.

Matt 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Matt 24

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

Quote

.Then Jesus starts telling HIS DISCIPLES about the 2000 some odd year Church Age in verses 7-14.

No, absolutely not. Jesus answers their question. They want to know when there will not be one stone upon another and what will be the sign when this occurs. They did not ask Jesus about the 2000 years of time. They asked a direct question and Jesus answered the question. These events occur at the SIGN of His coming and the end of the age. Then the Wrath of God begins.


 

Quote

 

Matt. 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So let's go over this portion of the passage line by line or verse by verse.

Verse 7 leads into verse 8 which tells us these are the beginning of SORROWS !! What does Sorrows mean ? Birth Pangs !! And thus its not THE BABY, but the signs of the Baby on the way, they get more and more frequent, until THE BIRTH HAPPENS, but the Sorrows can NEVER be about THE BABY, it can only be about the FREQUENCY RATE OF THE SIGNS !! Thus this passage can never be about the 70th week or Tribulation Period and it can only be about the Church Age that leads unto the 70th Week Tribulation period. So we get the details about the 2000 some odd year Church Age which BIRTHS the 70th week Judgment period, and the Disciples are told what will happen unto them in verse 9-10. So the Church Age will have many wars {CHECK}, and much Famine/Pestilence/Earthquakes {CHECK} etc. etc. Jesus then tells his Disciples that they would be killed or Martyred and thus hated by all nations. 

 

These sorrows begin when the rider on the white goes forth conquering and to conquer. Then of course there is the red horse of war. This all occurs in the tribulation period. The church will be gone before these events occur.

 

Quote

Now we get into POST DISCIPLE TERRITORY........And MANY FALSE PROPHETS will arise........

We were there in verse 2 and the verses that follow.

Quote

Notice the THREE MENTIONS of false christs and false prophets ? They are three distinct time periods within the chapter....Verse 5 is about the 70 AD false christs the Pharisees put forth hoping to "BE SAVED" from Rome or the Fourth Beast.  Verse 11 is about the 2000 some odd year Church Ages many, many, MANY COMING False Preachers and Teachers we have seen many of them ourselves {LOL}, like Robert Tilton, David Koresh, Jim Jones etc. etc., well you get the point. Then verse 24 tells us about THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet.  It's three distinct time periods. Now back to verses 7-14, the Church Age Period. 

Jesus is not talking to the Church, he is talking to the Jews. The Church will already be gone. The YE, is the Jews and not the disciples, as has already been shown.

Jer 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Church is caught up in the summer harvest. The Jews will still be on earth. The 70th week is for the Jews, not the Church.

 

Quote

Just remember, the BABY {Tribulation Period} can't be around until the Sorrows {Birth Pangs} are over. 

The beginning of sorrows occurs during the Tribulation. The baby is the Wrath of God. There is a difference between the Gods wrath and the Tribulation period, though so few understand.

 

Edited by The Light
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On 8/2/2019 at 2:17 AM, missmuffet said:

There have been so many heated debates regarding eschatology views and who is pretrib, prewath etc. I try to stay away from those threads. 

I browse to see if someone is saying something I haven’t heard and it makes a lot of sense. 

But for now, I feel pretty confident I have the timing of the rapture figured out:

Either....

Door A:  before the 70th week begins (pre Trib)

or

Door B: before the abomination of desolation (mid Trib) 

i will know which one is right when I either see the covenant being confirmed (mid Trib is right) or I see Jesus in the clouds first (pre Trib is right) 

  • Haha 1
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1 hour ago, Spock said:

I browse to see if someone is saying something I haven’t heard and it makes a lot of sense. 

But for now, I feel pretty confident I have the timing of the rapture figured out:

Either....

Door A:  before the 70th week begins (pre Trib)

or

Door B: before the abomination of desolation (mid Trib) 

i will know which one is right when I either see the covenant being confirmed (mid Trib is right) or I see Jesus in the clouds first (pre Trib is right) 

There will be a Door A for the Church, pre trib.

There will also be a Door B for the Jews that are scattered across the earth that go through the Tribulation, a pre wrath rapture. FYI Contrary to popular opinion, the abomination of desolation is at the end of the Tribulation not the mid point. The nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection. The Church that will be raptured pre trib and the Jews that will be raptured pre wrath are at the marriage supper during the wrath of God.

Edited by The Light
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58 minutes ago, The Light said:

There will be a Door A for the Church, pre trib.

There will also be a Door B for the Jews that are scattered across the earth that go through the Tribulation, a pre wrath rapture. FYI Contrary to popular opinion, the abomination of desolation is at the end of the Tribulation not the mid point. The nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection. The Church that will be raptured pre trib and the Jews that will be raptured pre wrath are at the marriage supper during the wrath of God.

Hi Light,

Can you please clarify....and add some supporting scriptures for:

A- the abomination of desolation is at the end of the Tribulation not the mid point.

B- and can you explain what you mean by "Israel goes through the wrath of God, but the Jews are raptured  pre-wrath"

Thanks bro 

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4 hours ago, Spock said:

I browse to see if someone is saying something I haven’t heard and it makes a lot of sense. 

But for now, I feel pretty confident I have the timing of the rapture figured out:

Either....

Door A:  before the 70th week begins (pre Trib)

or

Door B: before the abomination of desolation (mid Trib) 

i will know which one is right when I either see the covenant being confirmed (mid Trib is right) or I see Jesus in the clouds first (pre Trib is right) 

I guess time will tell.....huh?:)

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On 7/23/2019 at 11:27 AM, kenny2212 said:

To know which rapture view is correct; pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib or post-trib, we need to understand the issue from its beginning. The dominant rapture view is the pre-trib rapture view. Since the rapture views are what we are trying to understand, we'll leave them for a while and go to the next important issue. The next important issue is the Antichrist. Just to be clear, God's wrath is not for his children. So IF believers are still here, God will find a way to protect believers from his wrath.

THE ANTICHRIST

The Antichrist's first important act will be the signing of a peace treaty with Israel. 

Daniel 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
The antichrist is going to sign a peace treaty with Israel for 7 years. In the midst of the 7 years he is going to break the treaty. It's 3.5 years into the peace treaty the antichrist is known as the ANTICHRIST. For the 3.5 years before he is seen as the saviour of the world. He goes into the temple of God in Jerusalem and declares himself as God. His war with the saints begins at the midpoint of the 7 years. 

Revelation 13:7 -
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

For the first 3.5 years he is seen as a peaceful man. The question is "Will believers be here during the tribulation period because no rapture happened? Or are the saints people who gave their lives to Jesus after the rapture? One thing we know; believers are not subject to God's wrath. A type of believers will be on earth during the tribulation; Revelation 7:1-8. In the Olivet discourse Jesus was talking to the disciples as if they would be alive when the end of the world was at hand. All the disciples are dead now and life still continues. But there's some important things that Jesus said. Matthew 24:12 - ... the love of many shall wax cold. Why would the love of some people wax cold? Because Jesus won't be present physically to solve their problems. Like he did when he walked here on earth. Matthew 24:13 - But he that shall endure into the end, the same shall be saved. What end is being talked about here? Some people think it's martyrdom that is being talked about here (it partially is). But the end being talked about is an end of seeing through a glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12). In other words what Jesus was saying is you have to endure till I reveal myself to you fully. Could be through death, martyrdom e.t.c. Also, Jesus said in verse 6 that "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these must come to pass, but the end is not yet". It's clear that the 12 disciples would witness this. I believe that verses 1 to 14 are for the Israeli believers (in bible times) while verses 15 to 35 are for the tribulation believers of the generation that would see Jesus return. It's even said in verse 15 that the reader should understand.

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso READETH, let him understand:). Readeth?! Apparently, Jesus meant this for future believers. Jesus wouldn't have said readeth if it wasn't going to be in some book for reading in the future. Verses 15 to 35 is future believers. But it's for Israeli believers. The location being talked about is Israel. Although there would be tribulation for christians in other places too. Some people will believe in Jesus (both Israelites and other nationalities) after the rapture. These are the ones the Antichrist wages war against. Believers would be gone by then. I agree with the pre-wrath rapture view. It's similar to the pre-trib rapture view. The only difference is that the pre-wrath view places the rapture at the 6th seal while pre-trib says it comes before the seals, trumpets and bowls. Thank you.

 

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Light,

Can you please clarify....and add some supporting scriptures for:

A- the abomination of desolation is at the end of the Tribulation not the mid point.

B- and can you explain what you mean by "Israel goes through the wrath of God, but the Jews are raptured  pre-wrath"

Thanks bro 

Sure Joe, I'll try to clarify.

A- the abomination of desolation is at the end of the Tribulation not the mid point.

Daniel 12

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I take it that the 70th week of Daniel is 7 x 360 day = 2520 days

2520 days less 1335 day put the daily sacrifice being taken away at day 1185.

Add 1290 days to day 1185 and you get day 2475 when the abomination of desolation occurs.

The reason most don't understand this is because they don't understand that the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is the gathering from heaven and earth. It is not when Jesus comes to set His foot on the Mount of Olives like most pre tribbers think.

Part B when I get back.

 

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4 hours ago, The Light said:

We are not talking about the diaspora, we are talking about the buildings of the Temple

Matt 24

24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Did Jesus say, see ye not ALL these things or did He say, see ye not SOME of these things.

The Temple is nowhere to be found...you are overanalyzing the obvious here brother. 

Verses 32 and 33 point towards THE SIGNS....Not the Rebirth of Israel like many assume. Only those that see ALL OF THE SIGNS, thus only those living during the 70th week can see the Sun and Moon signs spoken of a few verses earlier. The Temple is torn down and was done so in 70 AD, the wailing wall is not a part of the Temple, it's a part of the Outer Court. 

The Temple will be Rebuilt, Jesus wasn't speaking of the End Times...he clearly says when this happens the END IS NOT YET....But is by and by. 

4 hours ago, The Light said:

You seem to be confusing Luke 21 with Matthew 24. Check the setting of each. See who Jesus is talking to in both these chapters.

 

I just spoke of my Exegesis on Matthew 24, so no, I am not confusing the two brother. None of this is the END TIMES until we get to verse 15.

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Jesus did answer the question about the buildings of the Temple. He said see ye not ALL these things. He said there would not be one stone upon another. The fact that we can see one stone upon another, of all those things, should be proof enough. Jesus is talking about the last days. To prove it further:

Mark 13

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

In verse 4 Jesus is asked and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

So if you say these verses are fulfilled, what was the sign when all these things were fullilled.  Jesus is talking about the buildings of the temple.

 

No brother, he's not speaking of EVERY SIGN in Matt. 24....I don't switch between chapters to get a a slanted POV highlighted, I used to do that 20 years ago, but in truth they all agree and say the same thing, Satan just tries to use the different viewpoints of the authors to confuse. There is no difference, I will stick with Matthew 24 since I spent months on it, switching back and forth about the same subject avails nothing, IMHO. If you think they are different tell us why...then we really do have a problem. {YIKES}

Anyway....you miss the THREE DISTINCT QUESTIONS....And then we get THREE DISTINCT ANSWERS.

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy comingand of the end of the world?

We see its three different questions, not one. Jesus had already told them about the Temple thus he gives them the parameters in verses 4-6 and the goings on with the Temple's destruction. Then what shall be the sign if they coming is ALL THE SIGNS of Matthew 24, beginning with the Temple's destruction, then the Church Age SORROWS/Birth Pangs that take us to the 7oth week tribulation, where Jesus SPECIFICALLY TELLS the Disciples they will all be Martyrs for his name's sake !! It goes in ORDER...Notice Jesus lays it all out in order !! As one would. The Last Sign is the Sun and Moon event during the 70th week tribulation period. This 1000 year reign leads to the END OF MANKIND'S RULE ALSO.

Then we get Matthew 24:36-51 which is the Rapture. Jesus gives both sets of Jews an ANSWER for the End Times...those in Christ will come back with hm in verses 29-31 {though he doesn't say it, we know it} and those Jews who are on and repented after the Rapture will be saved by Jesus' Second Coming. Why would you think Jesus would skip all the way to the End Time in verse 6, then tell the Disciples about their coming deaths in verse 9 ? I will tell you why people do these kind of things, they follow old "MEN'S TRADITIONS", Rev. 6 and Matt. 24 are the same thing, even though they aren't, nor can they be, the BIRTH PANGS can NEVER be a part of the Baby;s time on earth....................You either have ONE or THE OTHER, they can't coexist. The Birth Pangs thus can't be the 70th Week...it just is not possible !!

No one said they were ALL FULFILLED, they are three different questions. The Temple portion {Matt. 24:4-6} is fulfilled. 

9 hours ago, The Light said:

We can also look at Luke 21

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

So again I ask, if these things are fulfilled (there is not one stone upon another) WHAT WAS THE SIGN WHEN THESE THINGS CAME TO PASS?

Again, the Temple is long gone, you are citing the Wailing Wall as a part o the Temple it is not. The Temple was Destroyed....the city was sacked...false christs were put forth as political saviors. Verses 4-6 is about 70 AD. The BIRTH PANGS can't be about the BABY !!

7 hours ago, The Light said:

Your argument about Jesus saying YE referring to His Disciples quickly falls apart when you continue reading.

Matt 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Matt 24

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

No it doesn't, Jesus is clearly speaking about the 70th week end times here. One has to be studied in the Greek Koine to understand the difference, so I don't blame anyone for thinking in this manner, but all the clues should outweigh this anyway. Here is why we understand there's a difference.

Then  {will they deliver.....V-FIA-3P}     { you....PPro-A2P}    to tribulation and will kill you.

The PPro-A2P means a Personal-Possessive pronoun and an Accusative 2nd Person plural.

WHEREAS.....Verse 15 has a totally different meaning.

{When....Conj}   {therefore......Conj}   {yee shall see......V-ASA-2P} the Abomination...........

The V-ASA-2P above means.....Verb....Aorist Subjunctive Active...2nd Person Plural.  

The book of Matthew is indeed to the Jews in general, but you can tell by the writing when its a personalized pronoun verse's  a verb in general. Matthew even used different words to describe the two. He uses HUMAS {5209} in verse 9, but that word is nowhere to be found in verse 15. Basically THEREFORE and SHALL SEE are the only words in verse 15 in actuality, we know people will see so YEE was added by the translators, I mean it is correct, and the Koine Greek even has yee in a different place, but it's not personalized like verse 9. That's the point, Jesus personalized this passage and Matthew wrote it like that, it was about Matthew after all he should know. 

8 hours ago, The Light said:

No, absolutely not. Jesus answers their question. They want to know when there will not be one stone upon another and what will be the sign when this occurs. They did not ask Jesus about the 2000 years of time. They asked a direct question and Jesus answered the question. These events occur at the SIGN of His coming and the end of the age. Then the Wrath of God begins.

 

Well, wishing this was the 70th week ain't going to make it so brother. Jesus has already told them about the 70th week, he thus fills them in on WHEN in verses 4-6....but then tells them this IS NOT THE END......that is by and by......then he goes into the other 2 questions he was asked. They asked Jesus about the END......Thus Jesus fills them in on the 2000 some odd year Church Age....you are not suggesting the Church Age won't be nigh 2000 years are you ? Because it's been 2000 years and I see the end in sight as per the signs, we are in the "SUMMER OF EVENTS". You are conflating events brother.

8 hours ago, The Light said:

These sorrows begin when the rider on the white goes forth conquering and to conquer. Then of course there is the red horse of war. This all occurs in the tribulation period. The church will be gone before these events occur.

 

And you just IGNORED the fact that the Birth Pangs BIRTH the 70th week. The Sorrows are the Church Age.  The Four Horses are all about the Anti-Christ. The Church will indeed be gone. I am not saying you are off on most scriptures brother, just that you are conflating this passage here, you have always believed this way, thus it must be this way. The sorrows are the Church Age and gas nothing to do with Rev. 6. The sorrows were the million of people killed during the Church Age, the Black Death in the 13th century etc. etc. 

8 hours ago, The Light said:

These sorrows begin when the rider on the white goes forth conquering and to conquer. Then of course there is the red horse of war. This all occurs in the tribulation period. The church will be gone before these events occur.

 

Nope brother.

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Jesus is not talking to the Church, he is talking to the Jews. The Church will already be gone. The YE, is the Jews and not the disciples, as has already been shown.

Jer 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Church is caught up in the summer harvest. The Jews will still be on earth. The 70th week is for the Jews, not the Church.

 

And the Jews are BOTH in Christ and Jewish Saints who repent AFTER the Rapture. So BOTH ENDS have to be told. The YOU in verse 9 is about his disciples. The YEE in vs. 15 is not specified in such a manner. It is hard for us to overcome Men's Traditions, I heard this 30 years ago, so I know it not rom you per se. 

8 hours ago, The Light said:
On 8/2/2019 at 12:12 PM, Revelation Man said:

The beginning of sorrows occurs during the Tribulation. The baby is the Wrath of God. There is a difference between the Gods wrath and the Tribulation period, though so few understand.

 

We are in the sorrows/BIRTH PANGS as we speak. 

God Bless brother.

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