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kenny2212

The pre-wrath and pre- trib rapture views

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To know which rapture view is correct; pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib or post-trib, we need to understand the issue from its beginning. The dominant rapture view is the pre-trib rapture view. Since the rapture views are what we are trying to understand, we'll leave them for a while and go to the next important issue. The next important issue is the Antichrist. Just to be clear, God's wrath is not for his children. So IF believers are still here, God will find a way to protect believers from God's wrath.

THE ANTICHRIST

The Antichrist's first important act will be the signing of a peace treaty with Israel. 

Daniel 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
The antichrist is going to sign a peace treaty with Israel for 7 years. In the midst of the 7 years he is going to break the treaty. It's 3.5 years into the peace treaty the antichrist is known as the ANTICHRIST. For the 3.5 years before he is seen as the saviour of the world. He goes into the temple of God in Jerusalem and declares himself as God. His war with the saints begins at the midpoint of the 7 years. 

Revelation 13:7 -
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

For the first 3.5 years he is seen as a peaceful man. The question is "Will believers be here during the tribulation period because no rapture happened? Or are the saints people who gave their lives to Jesus after the rapture? One thing we know; believers are not subject to God's wrath. A type of believers will be on earth during the tribulation; Revelation 7:1-8. In the Olivet discourse Jesus was talking to the disciples as if they would be alive when the end of the world was at hand. All the disciples are dead now and life still continues. But there's some important things that Jesus said. Matthew 24:12 - ... the love of many shall wax cold. Why would the love of some people wax cold? Because Jesus won't be present physically to solve their problems. Like he did when he walked here on earth. Matthew 24:13 - But he that shall endure into the end, the same shall be saved. What end is being talked about here? Some people think it's martyrdom that is being talked about here (it partially is). But the end being talked about is an end of seeing through a glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12). In other words what Jesus was saying is you have to endure till I reveal myself to you fully. Could be through death, martyrdom e.t.c. Also, Jesus said in verse 6 that "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these must come to pass, but the end is not yet". It's clear that the 12 disciples would witness this. I believe that verses 1 to 14 are for the Israeli believers (in bible times) while verses 15 to 35 are for the tribulation believers of the generation that would see Jesus return. It's even said in verse 15 that the reader should understand.

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso READETH, let him understand:). Readeth?! Apparently, Jesus meant this for future believers. Jesus wouldn't have said readeth if it wasn't going to be in some book for reading in the future. Verses 15 to 35 is future believers. But it's for Israeli believers. The location being talked about is Israel. Although there would be tribulation for christians in other places too. Some people will believe in Jesus (both Israelites and other nationalities) after the rapture. These are the ones the Antichrist wages war against. Believers would be gone by then. I agree with the pre-wrath rapture view. It's similar to the pre-trib rapture view. The only difference is that the pre-wrath view places the rapture at the 6th seal while pre-trib says it comes before the seals, trumpets and bowls. Thank you.

Edited by kenny2212

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17 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso READETH, let him understand:). Readeth?! Apparently, Jesus meant this for future believers. Jesus wouldn't have said readeth if it wasn't going to be in some book for reading in the future. Verses 15 to 35 is future believers.

Greetings, Kenny. 

I think when He said "readeth," He was telling His audience at the time that when they read the Book of Daniel on this verse to understand that it referred to a future event, and not the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who some might have thought was a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy some 190 years earlier. But verses 15-35 definitely do apply to our future. The entire chapter does, in fact.

Blessings in Christ, and carry on. Just thought I'd share that with you.  

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1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

THE ANTICHRIST

The Antichrist's first important act will be the signing of a peace treaty with Israel. 

Daniel 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
The antichrist is going to sign a peace treaty with Israel for 7 years. In the midst of the 7 years he is going to break the treaty. It's 3.5 years into the peace treaty the antichrist is known as the ANTICHRIST. For the 3.5 years before he is seen as the saviour of the world. He goes into the temple of God in Jerusalem and declares himself as God. His war with the saints begins at the midpoint of the 7 years. 

This view is one of the greatest presumptions in all of eschatology.

 

The pro view, which has serious problems, is examined here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

The anti view is examined here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

 

Beware of group-think; examine the facts, not the PR.

 

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2 hours ago, Hidden In Him said:

Greetings, Kenny. 

I think when He said "readeth," He was telling His audience at the time that when they read the Book of Daniel on this verse to understand that it referred to a future event, and not the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who some might have thought was a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy some 190 years earlier.

I respectfully disagree, Hidden. Of course, the event is in the future. There is no need for Jesus to tell readers to understand what may have happened in the past. Jesus is God. Why would the almighty Jesus "prophesy" something that has already happened? Jesus was telling future readers to understand. 

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5 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

Why would the almighty Jesus "prophesy" something that has already happened? 

Yes. Jesus was making sure they did not think the prophecy of Daniel had already happened, so He was telling them that when they read the Book of Daniel to understand it was still yet future tense. 

If you take the verse as written for us alone, you have Jesus talking right past His listeners to us today, saying, "2,000 years later, those of you who read this book understand..." 

I don't think Jesus talked past His immediate audience like that. Those He was addressing directly at the time were important to Him as well.

Anyway, just placing the prophecy in its proper context for you.

Blessings in Christ.

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By the way, the pre Trib view is ALSO pre wrath. (Rapture before God’s wrath) 

And Daniel does not say a PEACE TREATY is signed. It says a COVENANT IS BEING CONFIRMED. 

Very well could be two different things. 

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On 7/23/2019 at 10:27 AM, kenny2212 said:

To know which rapture view is correct; pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib or post-trib, we need to understand the issue from its beginning. The dominant rapture view is the pre-trib rapture view. Since the rapture views are what we are trying to understand, we'll leave them for a while and go to the next important issue. The next important issue is the Antichrist. Just to be clear, God's wrath is not for his children. So IF believers are still here, God will find a way to protect believers from his wrath.

THE ANTICHRIST

The Antichrist's first important act will be the signing of a peace treaty with Israel. 

Daniel 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
The antichrist is going to sign a peace treaty with Israel for 7 years. In the midst of the 7 years he is going to break the treaty. It's 3.5 years into the peace treaty the antichrist is known as the ANTICHRIST. For the 3.5 years before he is seen as the saviour of the world. He goes into the temple of God in Jerusalem and declares himself as God. His war with the saints begins at the midpoint of the 7 years. 

Revelation 13:7 -
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

For the first 3.5 years he is seen as a peaceful man. The question is "Will believers be here during the tribulation period because no rapture happened? Or are the saints people who gave their lives to Jesus after the rapture? One thing we know; believers are not subject to God's wrath. A type of believers will be on earth during the tribulation; Revelation 7:1-8. In the Olivet discourse Jesus was talking to the disciples as if they would be alive when the end of the world was at hand. All the disciples are dead now and life still continues. But there's some important things that Jesus said. Matthew 24:12 - ... the love of many shall wax cold. Why would the love of some people wax cold? Because Jesus won't be present physically to solve their problems. Like he did when he walked here on earth. Matthew 24:13 - But he that shall endure into the end, the same shall be saved. What end is being talked about here? Some people think it's martyrdom that is being talked about here (it partially is). But the end being talked about is an end of seeing through a glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12). In other words what Jesus was saying is you have to endure till I reveal myself to you fully. Could be through death, martyrdom e.t.c. Also, Jesus said in verse 6 that "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these must come to pass, but the end is not yet". It's clear that the 12 disciples would witness this. I believe that verses 1 to 14 are for the Israeli believers (in bible times) while verses 15 to 35 are for the tribulation believers of the generation that would see Jesus return. It's even said in verse 15 that the reader should understand.

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso READETH, let him understand:). Readeth?! Apparently, Jesus meant this for future believers. Jesus wouldn't have said readeth if it wasn't going to be in some book for reading in the future. Verses 15 to 35 is future believers. But it's for Israeli believers. The location being talked about is Israel. Although there would be tribulation for christians in other places too. Some people will believe in Jesus (both Israelites and other nationalities) after the rapture. These are the ones the Antichrist wages war against. Believers would be gone by then. I agree with the pre-wrath rapture view. It's similar to the pre-trib rapture view. The only difference is that the pre-wrath view places the rapture at the 6th seal while pre-trib says it comes before the seals, trumpets and bowls. Thank you.

The main prewrath rapture timeline has the 6th seal somewhere about 5-6 years into the 70th week.  They show the trumpets and bowls in the last 1.5 years. I find this very hard to believe as being accurate. 

It is certainly debatable as to when God’s wrath begins. It depends on what grammar experts you think is right. Does it begin after 6th seal or does it begin BEFORE 1st seal.  I’ve read both sides of this debate regarding how to interpret Rev 6:17....”The great day of their wrath has come....” 

i completely disagree and find it comical as to how anyone could believe the trumpets are not God’s wrath. Are you kidding me? 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/23/2019 at 9:27 AM, kenny2212 said:

To know which rapture view is correct; pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib or post-trib, we need to understand the issue from its beginning. The dominant rapture view is the pre-trib rapture view. Since the rapture views are what we are trying to understand, we'll leave them for a while and go to the next important issue. The next important issue is the Antichrist. Just to be clear, God's wrath is not for his children. So IF believers are still here, God will find a way to protect believers from his wrath.

THE ANTICHRIST

The Antichrist's first important act will be the signing of a peace treaty with Israel. 

Daniel 9:27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
The antichrist is going to sign a peace treaty with Israel for 7 years. In the midst of the 7 years he is going to break the treaty. It's 3.5 years into the peace treaty the antichrist is known as the ANTICHRIST. For the 3.5 years before he is seen as the saviour of the world. He goes into the temple of God in Jerusalem and declares himself as God. His war with the saints begins at the midpoint of the 7 years. 

Covenant simply means AGREEMENT in Hebrew....Of course no countries enter into agreements seeking war thus it has to be a "PEACE PROCESS" but it's more than that, its an entanglement between all of the Mediterranean Sea Region and the E.U./E.U. President, not just Israel. That is where almost everyone make their fatal mistake. They thus deem this man as supposedly being the "Savior" of the world or a fake Christ, but that is not who he is, now he doEs try to deceive those Jews who flee to Judea into believing a fake christ is on the scene, trying to draw them out in order to kill them, but after he goes on the warpath, he doesn't need to deceive anymore, he just starts killing.

 

On 7/23/2019 at 9:27 AM, kenny2212 said:

Revelation 13:7 -
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

For the first 3.5 years he is seen as a peaceful man. The question is "Will believers be here during the tribulation period because no rapture happened? Or are the saints people who gave their lives to Jesus after the rapture? One thing we know; believers are not subject to God's wrath. A type of believers will be on earth during the tribulation; Revelation 7:1-8. In the Olivet discourse Jesus was talking to the disciples as if they would be alive when the end of the world was at hand. All the disciples are dead now and life still continues. But there's some important things that Jesus said. Matthew 24:12 - ... the love of many shall wax cold. Why would the love of some people wax cold? Because Jesus won't be present physically to solve their problems. Like he did when he walked here on earth. Matthew 24:13 - But he that shall endure into the end, the same shall be saved. What end is being talked about here? Some people think it's martyrdom that is being talked about here (it partially is). But the end being talked about is an end of seeing through a glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12). In other words what Jesus was saying is you have to endure till I reveal myself to you fully. Could be through death, martyrdom e.t.c. Also, Jesus said in verse 6 that "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these must come to pass, but the end is not yet". It's clear that the 12 disciples would witness this. I believe that verses 1 to 14 are for the Israeli believers (in bible times) while verses 15 to 35 are for the tribulation believers of the generation that would see Jesus return. It's even said in verse 15 that the reader should understand.

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso READETH, let him understand:). Readeth?! Apparently, Jesus meant this for future believers. Jesus wouldn't have said readeth if it wasn't going to be in some book for reading in the future. Verses 15 to 35 is future believers. But it's for Israeli believers. The location being talked about is Israel. Although there would be tribulation for christians in other places too. Some people will believe in Jesus (both Israelites and other nationalities) after the rapture. These are the ones the Antichrist wages war against. Believers would be gone by then. I agree with the pre-wrath rapture view. It's similar to the pre-trib rapture view. The only difference is that the pre-wrath view places the rapture at the 6th seal while pre-trib says it comes before the seals, trumpets and bowls. Thank you.

Matt. 24:1-6 is about Jesus' time to 70 AD.....Matt. 24:7-14 is about the 2000 some odd year Church Age....and verses 15-31 is about the Tribulation period. 

One must ENDURE till the end of one's life, Paul said we must run the full race.

The Martyrs are those who die after the Rapture. The Saints are the Jews whom God will protect in Petra.

Edited by Revelation Man

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Posted (edited)
On 7/31/2019 at 6:12 PM, Revelation Man said:

Matt. 24:1-6 is about Jesus' time to 70 AD.....Matt. 24:7-14 is about the 2000 some odd year Church Age....and verses 15-31 is about the Tribulation period. 

One must ENDURE till the end of one's life, Paul said we must run the full race.

The Martyrs are those who die after the Rapture. The Saints are the Jews who God will protect in Petra.

Mark 13

13 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Mark 13 can help clarify Matthew 24

Matt 24:1-6 has not occurred yet. There are still stones, one upon another.

Matt 24:7-14 is not the Church age, it has not occurred yet.

You are correct about verses 15-31 being the Tribulation period. All the verses are about the last days and the tribulation period.

The disciples asked when these things shall be and what shall be the signs when all these things shall be fulfilled.

Think about that. When shall these things be fulfilled and what shall be the signs of all these things being fulfilled.  WHAT THINGS? When there shall not be one stone upon another at the Temple mount. There is no talk about 70 AD or the Church age. The answer they are seeking is when shall all these things be cast down and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled.

 

Edited by The Light
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There have been so many heated debates regarding eschatology views and who is pretrib, prewath etc. I try to stay away from those threads. 

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