The seven heads and the harlot atop them

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

There is no person (a man controlled by Satan) called the dragon the in that group.      There is the image of the beast, the statue, that speaks, incarnated by Satan.    That image, the outer facade will be burnt up, brought to ashes, exposing Satan, the day that Jesus returns.

The dragon is just another word for Satan.       It is the false prophet, the beast, and the dragon (Satan).    beast, false prophet - to the lake of fire.  Satan - to the bottomless pit, after he is exposed to the world, Ezekiel 28:17-19.

Satan, the dragon, is speaking in Revelation 16:13 because he will be possessing the AoD statue image of beast, which speaks (Revelation 13:15).

You are not understanding the ramifications of the fall of Satan. Right now, as the prince of the power of the air, what FORM can he take? It is in the Word Of God...

When He is cast down from this position what is the form he can take?

Notice in these two verse the loss of the adjective to describe Him?

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

He Lost his Greatness... He No longer can appear in the skies as an angel of light, but is now relegated to His serpent/animal character in the case of revelation 16, as a frog. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs

Well, a frog is not going to rule the world, and does not exactly intimidate, so he occupies a host body, a Human being. Just like the false prophet and the Beast do. When that body is killed, that spirit being, in this case Satan, must go and find another, and all three of these spirit beings go out to the kings of the earth.  

[douggg]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

You are not understanding the ramifications of the fall of Satan. Right now, as the prince of the power of the air, what FORM can he take? It is in the Word Of God...

When He is cast down from this position what is the form he can take?

Notice in these two verse the loss of the adjective to describe Him?

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

It is not talking about the fall of Satan in Revelation 12, as way back when.   It is not talking about Satan fall in the third heaven when iniquity was found in him.    Revelation 12 is yet to come, it talking about a war forthcoming in the second heaven.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

You left out the critical verses above.   It is not talking about the fall of Satan in Revelation 12 as way back when.     Revelation 12 is still future, to happen a time, times, half times before Jesus Returns.   

The war in heaven - is referring to the second heaven, the cosmos - what you see when you go outside on a clear night and see all the start in the sky.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Every single step of what is coming is in Ezekiel 28 of what is to take place on the Temple Mount at Jesus's return .

 

Ezekiel 28:

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

In verse 16, is the way back when fall of Satan, he and his angels become no longer present to freely roam around in the third heaven.    Satan has limited access to accuse humans before the throne of God, but not to roam around in heaven as he pleases any longer, nor in his former role in heaven, before iniquity was found in him.    God declares he will destroy Satan.

In verse 17, in the red font, it is referring to the Revelation 12 end times event, whereby Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth from the second heaven, the war that takes place in Revelation 12:7-9.

In verse 17, in the blue font, will take place the day that Jesus returns, on the temple mount when Satan will be seen by everyone.

In verse 18, in the red font, the AoD image that speaks because it is incarnated by Satan, which will have the seducing spirit John saw as a frog, that goes out and convinces the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus - that image will be burnt up by Jesus at His return.

In verse 18, in the blue font, the AoD image will be reduced to ashes, exposing Satan, beheld, seen by everyone there on the temple mount that day when Jesus returns.

In verse 19, in the red font, all the people who had been worshiping the AoD image of the beast.

In verse 19, in the blue font, they are going to be astonished when they see Satan, no longer concealed by the out shell of the AoD image of the beast.

In verse 19, in the orange font, up to that time, Satan will have been a terror to the earth, roaming like a lion seeking who he can destroy.    But he is chained and cast into the bottomless pit, a terror no more, for the thousand years.    And ultimately cast into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2019 by douggg

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

It is not talking about the fall of Satan in Revelation 12, as way back when.   It is not talking about Satan fall in the third heaven when iniquity was found in him.    Revelation 12 is yet to come, it talking about a war forthcoming in the second heaven.

I Agree, But Satan has fallen many times from being the cherub that covereth in the third heaven... Rev. 12 is when he falls from the 1st heaven as the Prince of the Power of the air to a mere earth creature. Obviously you did not read or comprehend what I said very well? Yes this fall to earth is in the future, yet.

Did you like miss this paragraph from before?

There is a progression to Satan's falling throughout scripture, as exalts himself and falls. From the third heaven, (Garden of Eden) to the second, (Isa. 14) to the first heaven where he is now,(Crucifixion)  to being cast down to earth (Rev 12), then to the bottomless pit (Rev 19), and then finally in the lake of fire. (Rev. 20).

Edited August 2, 2019 by dhchristian

[douggg]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree, But Satan has fallen many times from being the cherub that covereth in the third heaven... Rev. 12 is when he falls from the 1st heaven as the Prince of the Power of the air to a mere earth creature. Obviously you did not read or comprehend what I said very well? Yes this fall to earth is in the future, yet.

Did you like miss this paragraph from before?

There is a progression to Satan's falling throughout scripture, as exalts himself and falls. From the third heaven, (Garden of Eden) to the second, (Isa. 14) to the first heaven where he is now,(Crucifixion)  to being cast down to earth (Rev 12), then to the bottomless pit (Rev 19), and then finally in the lake of fire. (Rev. 20).

The point I am making is Satan is not possessing some man called the dragon, who will be killed.   Differently, Satan will be incarnating the Abomination of Desolation statue image that speaks in Revelation 16:14.   

No-one is being killed in Revelation 16:14.    You are misinterpreting the spirits of devils looking like frogs coming from the mouths of the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon.     It is just saying seducing spirits by the words of the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon will convince the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus.

[WilliamL]

On 8/1/2019 at 11:08 AM, JoeCanada said:

Daniel 8: 14 reads “2,300 evenings and mornings” and not “2,300 evenings and 2,300 mornings.”

There is no "and" in the Hebrew: it literally reads "evenings-mornngs," denoting, in my understanding, their functional connectedness: that is, this is the order of the tending of the lamps by the priests. Which distinguishes this verse from the morning and evening order of the sacrifices upon the altar.

[WilliamL]

On 8/1/2019 at 9:54 PM, dhchristian said:

There is a progression to Satan's falling throughout scripture, as exalts himself and falls. From the third heaven, (Garden of Eden) to the second, (Isa. 14) to the first heaven where he is now,(Crucifixion)  to being cast down to earth (Rev 12), then to the bottomless pit (Rev 19), and then finally in the lake of fire. (Rev. 20).

You have the order of descent right, but the names of the heavens inverted. The first heaven is the protos/preeminent heaven; the third is the lowest, called Paradise/the Garden, the level of righteous souls. The Second heaven is the level of righteous spirits, called the Throne. The First heaven is the level of righteous neshamoth/breath (the Breath of God is a holy fire), called the Sanctuary.

Adam and Eve were in the Garden, and fell into the fourth world, the physical. They were not in the highest heaven, but in the lowest, before their souls became corrupted.

[WilliamL]

On 7/31/2019 at 4:33 PM, dhchristian said:

I Have been through this with Doug, The dragon, the beast and the false prophet are men possessed by a devil. In Rev 16:13, those spirits depart those bodies, meaning the Host body are Killed.

Dougg is correct on this one. Higher level spirits are collective beings, such as the one called Legion:

Luke 8:30  Jesus asked him, saying, “What is thy name?” And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him.

Mark 5:9 Then He asked him, “What is thy name?” And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.”

Note that Jesus addressed this spirit in the singular, although that spirit was an archon over the collective body of spirits gathered in one. Likewise, both Satan and the Beast have multiple heads, representing lower-level spirit-beings. So it is perfectly in line with this that unclean spirits like frogs could come out of the mouths of these beings without their suffering death in any way. Likewise, the sarim of Greece and Persia, who rule over entire nations of human spirits, of which they can possess individually or collectively, and then depart from if they so choose.

[dhchristian]

Just now, WilliamL said:

You have the order of descent right, but the names of the heavens inverted. The first heaven is the protos/preeminent heaven; the third is the lowest, called Paradise/the Garden, the level of righteous souls. The Second heaven is the level of righteous spirits, called the Throne. The First heaven is the level of righteous neshamoth/breath (the Breath of God is a holy fire), called the Sanctuary.

Adam and Eve were in the Garden, and fell into the fourth world, the physical. They were not in the highest heaven, but in the lowest, before their souls became corrupted.

Thank you for the correction. Just writing from memory, and my perspective, looking up first heaven is the sky to me. Well, wait a minute....

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Isn't the third heaven the highest? 

Here is what My study Bible says... Not verbatim

The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere (Gen 8:2, Deut. 11:11, 1Kings 8:35)

The second is interstellar space (Gen 15:5, Psa 8:3, Isa. 13:10)

The third heaven is the abode of God. (1Kings 8:30, 2 chron 30:27, Ps. 123:1)

So I was right?

[dhchristian]

Just now, WilliamL said:

Note that Jesus addressed this spirit in the singular, although that spirit was an archon over the collective body of spirits gathered in one. Likewise, both Satan and the Beast have multiple heads, representing lower-level spirit-beings. So it is perfectly in line with this that unclean spirits like frogs could come out of the mouths of these beings without their suffering death in any way. Likewise, the sarim of Greece and Persia, who rule over entire nations of human spirits, of which they can possess individually or collectively, and then depart from if they so choose.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)

When someone willfully desires the power and enlightenment of demonic spirits, Then their body is given to Satan for destruction. Key word is willfully. The above person was a church leader in Corinth who had married his mother, and if the case is true there, then it is true of the reprobates that willfully seek demon empowerment. Not something taught in the churches nowadays. Read up on those with reprobate minds, Start at Romans 1:18ff. It is a Worthy debate to have, is there hope of repentance for the reprobate? Cause our world is full of these people and demon possession is the next step for them.

[WilliamL]

17 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

So I was right?

No, your study Bible is teaching churchianity.

Luke 23:32 And Jesus said to him [the repentant thief on the cross], “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Cor. 12:4 ...how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is just another name for the Garden, for Eden, the place of the righteous souls in the spiritual realm. Also called "Abraham's bosom."

Jesus "descended first into the lower parts of the earth..." Eph. 4:9 

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Jesus descended to hades, preached to and converted the righteous souls of the dead, and built his church among them. The gates of hell could not prevail against them, and they ascended to the third/lowest heaven (they did not jump all the way up to the first!), which thereafter became Paradise. Hades/hell/sheol is now no more the repository of the souls of all the dead, as it was before the Atonement; it now only the repository of the souls of those who have rejected the Gospel.

Edited August 5, 2019 by WilliamL
typo