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The Genesis 3 beast


douggg

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On 7/29/2019 at 7:22 PM, BeauJangles said:

I would suppose he put some holes in the lid to allow for breathing purposes. :whistling:

Shalom Beau,

If you are interested to see the video of a former black magician who used a blackmagic/devil owned bird to destroy people this is the video you can find at youtube, the bird was later released from the bondage of evil spirit.

Just type at youtube page :

"How I Send Pigeons To KILL..." - NOTORIOUS WITCH-DOCTOR!!! TB Joshua.

 

Edited by R. Hartono
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4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Shalom Beau,

If you are interested to see the video of a former black magician who used a blackmagic/devil owned bird to destroy people this is the video you can find at youtube, the bird was later released from the bondage of evil spirit.

Just type at youtube page :

"How I Send Pigeons To KILL..." - NOTORIOUS WITCH-DOCTOR!!! TB Joshua.

 

Thanks, bro. I'll make a point of looking it up. Glad to hear the pigeon was freed from the demonic influence over it. That would be even more interesting for me to see that happen, if also viewed on YouTube. 

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On 7/30/2019 at 10:02 AM, douggg said:

There was no failure by God of anything.    He is well aware of everything before it happens.

 

1Peter1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

____________________________________________________________________________

So who do you think is the beast in the bottomless in Revelation 17:8a ?

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

John saw Satan as the scarlet color beast in Revelation 17:3.   But Satan obviously is not in the bottomless pit.   So it has to be someone who was affiliated with Satan.      Which the beast that beguiled Eve in Genesis 3 allowed Satan to use him.  

 

 

Your logic is faulty with regard to the Eden temptation story.    

If God is "well aware of everything before it happens" then it logically follows that God designed the temptation as a no-win scenario for Adam & Eve.   It suggests (falsely) that God is a greater evil than the devil, that God is unjust and wickedly manipulative.  The logical extension of your statement puts God in a bad light ... not at all what the Bible tells us of His nature.

There are numerous passages throughout the Bible that suggest human events do not always go as God intends.  Perhaps that's a better way to frame the Eden story rather than to suggest God failed at something.   God is an active player on the stage of history.   He begins by setting things up for good.   Man, inspired by selfish desires or prompted by evil, tends to wreck God's intentions.   God then responds by correcting the situation in such a way that it cannot be corrupted again.

Simply put;

God creates good.

Good is corrupted by evil.

God then creates the super-good, which cannot be corrupted.

It's called the plan of redemption and allows for free will of humankind - as well as the exercise of free will on the part of God.   In the end, despite man's worst intentions, God wins.  

Except that the whole thing isn't about who wins.  It's about learning how to reciprocate the love of God in ways that are meaningful and acceptable by God who has rightly earned and truly deserves the admiration and worship of His creations.

The alternative is to assume that the creator of Satan is more evil than the fallen angel itself.   The Bible makes no such assertions, although mankind frequently does.

The SERPENT in Genesis 3 has been interpreted to mean 'tempter'.  It has no other interpretation or function in the Eden story except to provide a foil to God.  The foil, as a character in literature or a play, is meant to provide a contrast to a major or superior character.   In the Genesis 3 story, the tempter or serpent, is a foil.

Adam & Eve are then thrust into the dialectic between God and tempter and are meant to learn how to love God - by means of trust and obedience. (the good)

God's design and intent for humanity is then 'foiled' by the tempter.  (good defeated or corrupted by evil)

The foil, as well as Adam & Eve, is defeated and cast out of the garden but not without a promise and hope of a future redeemer. (creation of the super-good)

References to Revelation at this point in the narrative only serve to obfuscate a correct interpretation of Genesis 3 as well as full appreciation of its message.   Its about the fall of man from God's original intentions for him and it begins the story of redemption.  

Do you skip to the end of a book to see how the last chapter comes out, or do you read the book page by page to allow the story to unfold as the author intended? 

Read the Bible as its author intended and let each part of the story tell its own tale in its own time.  One is less liable to get confused that way. 

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited by choir loft
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On 8/1/2019 at 10:20 PM, choir loft said:

If God is "well aware of everything before it happens" then it logically follows that God designed the temptation as a no-win scenario for Adam & Eve.   It suggests (falsely) that God is a greater evil than the devil, that God is unjust and wickedly manipulative.  The logical extension of your statement puts God in a bad light ... not at all what the Bible tells us of His nature.

No, that is not rational.    God made the angels and human beings with choices of free will.     We are not told why the tree of knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden.    And we have to guess what knowledge of good and evil actual meant.    And the tree of life.     There is in proverbs referrals to certain behaviors as "a" tree of life.    Actually in four proverbs 3:18, 11:30, 15:4, 13:12.  

 

On 8/1/2019 at 10:20 PM, choir loft said:

There are numerous passages throughout the Bible that suggest human events do not always go as God intends.  Perhaps that's a better way to frame the Eden story rather than to suggest God failed at something.   God is an active player on the stage of history.   He begins by setting things up for good.   Man, inspired by selfish desires or prompted by evil, tends to wreck God's intentions.   God then responds by correcting the situation in such a way that it cannot be corrupted again.

God did not fail.   It was Adam and Eve who failed when they, of free will, although beguiled by the serpent, chose to eat from the forbidden tree.

In the bible, when God says he creates good and evil, in it in the context of man strays excessively from obeying God's law, as in the case of the children of Israel worshiping other "gods",  God will bring evil on the them as punishment, and/or to get man to repent.     God does not universally do everything that could be called good or evil          

 

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On 8/3/2019 at 1:25 AM, douggg said:

No, that is not rational.    God made the angels and human beings with choices of free will.     We are not told why the tree of knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden.    And we have to guess what knowledge of good and evil actual meant.    And the tree of life.     There is in proverbs referrals to certain behaviors as "a" tree of life.    Actually in four proverbs 3:18, 11:30, 15:4, 13:12.  

 

God did not fail.   It was Adam and Eve who failed when they, of free will, although beguiled by the serpent, chose to eat from the forbidden tree.

In the bible, when God says he creates good and evil, in it in the context of man strays excessively from obeying God's law, as in the case of the children of Israel worshiping other "gods",  God will bring evil on the them as punishment, and/or to get man to repent.     God does not universally do everything that could be called good or evil          

 

On 8/3/2019 at 1:25 AM, douggg said:

 

We certainly ARE told why God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden.  

We are told by inference, which is the way much of Biblical intent is conveyed.   The garden story was intended as a standard of obedience and trust.   As such it provides a path to human understanding of how to love God.   Adam & Eve's problem is repeated throughout history.  Humans always learn the hard way.  

Adam and Eve were created without sin - perfect.  But they were not perfectly formed in their understanding of the nature of God.  Therefore God created the first scenario where they could learn.  He created the first opportunity to choose.  As such it was Eve who failed and who dragged her husband into sin with her.  The great temptress of man has always been woman - from Genesis 3 to Revelation 17 she works hand in glove with the tempter.  Did God fail when He created woman or did He intend her to be a blessing?  The woman chose sin for herself and has been blaming everyone else ever since.

If God does not do anything humanity would define as good or evil, then how do we know God is good?  How do we know God is not more evil than the devil He created?

[STOP HERE]   

The idea that God is evil is posed by those who object to Biblical revelations of His nature.  

The idea that God created a no-win scenario for Adam & Eve in the garden temptation is popular with those who deny the goodness of God and claim HE is more evil than the tempter.  

It is important to establish a counter-argument by stating God is love and that God offered an opportunity for Adam & Eve to learn how to return His love.  

Did God fail or did God create the opportunity for choice by free will WHICH ALLOWS FOR FAILURE & sin?  

Consider that God created the scenario in the first place; humans, tempter & object of temptation - the tree.  He put them all together in one place at one time and said "do not touch".  Adam & Eve had no prior experience with the word NO.  The only conclusion one can arrive at is that the scene was deliberate on God's part.  What was God's purpose in doing this?  Either He was evil, and created a trap for the humans -or- He created a free will scenario (the only environment in which obedience and trust and love of God can exist).   Since Adam & Eve had no experience either way, they responded in the only way natural to them.  They sinned.

Is God therefore the author of sin?  May it never be.  God IS the author of free will AND the solution to sin. 

Something went terribly wrong in the Garden of Eden on that last day of creation's honeymoon.  Sin came into the world as a free will choice of Eve & Adam. It taught them and us about another facet of God's nature.  HE cannot be defeated by human sin.  God is not willing that man should die even though God has pronounced the death sentence for sin.  It shows us that God has a solution for sin.

Again:

God creates good

Good is defeated by man & tempter

God creates the Super-good, which cannot be defeated

God's judgment of the first sin also carried with it a whisper of His plan of redemption - the super-good.  (Genesis 3:15)

* * *

The idea that God knew ahead of time that Adam & Eve would sin is a condemnation both of free will and God's goodness. 

It is an expression of predestination that Biblical context does not support.  

It is also a statement of divine wickedness.  Did God set a trap for the first humans or did He provide an opportunity for them to learn how to love Him?

Did God condemn only or did He begin a work that would result in forgiveness?

* * *

If the interpretation I offer is not acceptable to you, I invite you to suggest another one.  

The idea that God created the temptation scenario as a way for humans to return God's love is not mine.  

Instead of criticizing an explanation that's been suggested by better men than I, why don't you come up with something that's logical and consistent with Biblical context.  Instead of criticizing, come up with a better explanation that doesn't suggest God is evil or that He is in collusion with the devil.  

The simpleton relies upon the demonic dogma that God knew everything ahead of time.  It suggests God is the author of sin and it dismisses the deeper meaning of what happened in the garden.  It totally ignores the nature of God throughout the entirety of the Bible.  It completely dismisses the possibility that God is bigger than human sin.

If you think that's irrational, then perhaps you'd better investigate another religion.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited by choir loft
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...

Edited by douggg
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On 8/3/2019 at 12:25 AM, douggg said:

God did not fail.   It was Adam and Eve who failed when they, of free will, although beguiled by the serpent, chose to eat from the forbidden tree.

I don't really consider Adam and Eve as failures....      God intended for mankind to judge angels.....    he created Adam and Eve not capable of doing that for they did not know good from bad or good from evil depending on the translation.....     if God intended for us to judge angels then he intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit.....   oddly enough it was Satan himself that make it possible for mankind to be his jury and in a way is just poetic justice the way it happened. God being a just God would not be judge and jury.  I just love the way he works.....

And to go along with it since his greatest creation (Lucifer) turned on him, he can test each of us before we receive eternal bodies to see how we will work out...   anyway, the complete whole story is just fascinating to ponder.

Now Satan can't say that God created the Jury to condemn them, for what God originally created was not capable of doing so.....       once again Satan is playing checkers and God 4D chess.

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11 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I believe we are told that Satan/Lucifer/dragon/beast, whatever you want to call him was there in the Garden controlling the actions....   whether or not he was the embodiment of whatever is referred to as the serpent I can't say and I have read several different thoughts on the subject...…    to me personally it really doesn't matter for it was the evil one who was setting it all up.     If God changed the serpent to crawl around on it's belly, I doubt we really know what it was that was talking to Eve.  If it didn't crawl around on it's belly, did it have legs.....   a rabbit hole I don't have the time or inclination to go down.

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23 minutes ago, other one said:

I believe we are told that Satan/Lucifer/dragon/beast, whatever you want to call him was there in the Garden controlling the actions....   whether or not he was the embodiment of whatever is referred to as the serpent I can't say and I have read several different thoughts on the subject...…    to me personally it really doesn't matter for it was the evil one who was setting it all up.     If God changed the serpent to crawl around on it's belly, I doubt we really know what it was that was talking to Eve.  If it didn't crawl around on it's belly, did it have legs.....   a rabbit hole I don't have the time or inclination to go down.

Believe it or not, you just articulated my sentiments exactly, with one exception. in your list (Satan/Lucifer/dragon/beast) I would add "adversary".:)

Edited by Still Alive
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