Identifying John as one of the two witnesses

[dhchristian]

Just now, douggg said:

I am thinking Moses and Elijah, because both of them would have a connection to the Jews and Israel. 

The Point I made to Diaste is that Israel will celebrate the arrival of Moses and Elijah, not celebrate and give gifts to each other when they are dead is something to look into here. There is a tradition to leave a seat and place for Elijah at the Passover Seder, and they will long for his arrival and the same  with Moses. I think if anything, The beast and the false prophet will be a mimic of these two. Just think about this a bit, This I think will be who and what the two witnesses will be prophesying against. ?

Edited July 30, 2019 by dhchristian

[douggg]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The Point I made to Diaste is that Israel will celebrate the arrival of Moses and Elijah, not celebrate and give gifts to each other when they are dead is something to look into here.

Israel is not the one who does the celebrating over the death of the two witnesses.   It is the people around the world in the nations who will celibrate the death of the witnesses.

Revelation 11;9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Israel will not celebrate the appearance of the two witnesses.    Israel and the world will view them as quacks.    And will try to ignore them.

It will not be until the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood, that the Jews take the two witnesses seriously for real, and all the prophesying that the two witnesses had been making against their perceived messiah was for real.

It will be only be 144,000 Jews who take the two witnesses for real when they first appear and start prophesying against the perceived messiah.    The rest fall into line when the Antichrist commits his audacious act.

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

There is a tradition to leave a seat and place for Elijah at the Passover Seder, and they will long for his arrival and the same  with Moses. I think if anything, The beast and the false prophet will be a mimic of these two. Just think about this a bit, This I think will be who and what the two witnesses will be prophesying against. ?

For Elijah, not for Moses.    The false prophet will pass himself off claiming to be Elijah.

Assuming one of the two witnesses being Elijah, there will be two competing Elijah's, one real, the other the false prophet.

Edited July 30, 2019 by douggg

[Sister]

9 hours ago, dhchristian said:

"Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (John 21:22)

And the next verse.....

  John 21:23   Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

I think it clarifies that Jesus did not imply that John should not die, but even if he did allow him to tarry, it's of no concern to them. A big "if" in there.  The disciples understood wrong.  They were not given the holy spirit yet.

 

Plus it's only appointed once for men to die.  Moses is dead.  John is dead.  Only two men never died - Enoch and Elijah.  This makes more sense to me now. 

  Hebrews 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Before I I wrong and thought Elijah and Moses because of the transfiguration.  That transfiguration was just a "glimpse" of "the kingdom of God"  There are more than two in the kingdom of God.  John is one of the 12 foundations.

 

 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I concede that what you say is true, But ask, why is it that people in Jerusalem will celebrate their death? Israel is awaiting Elijah to come, they set out an extra meal for him at Passover Seder. If it is Moses, they will celebrate his arrival even more. Enoch I am sure would be welcomed with open arms as well. I Just want to dig a little deeper here, I Just think there is more to this than we know.  

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you," Matt 23

"And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth."   Heb 11

It's probably just for show the place is set at the table for Elijah. The very last thing the Jewish people will accept is a prophet of the Most High.

It took less than 40 days for the Israelites to turn on Moses when he went up on the mount. They claim to revere Moses yet did nothing but complain the entire time after their delivery from Egypt.

If the Jews would accept such a prophet would they have tried to kill Jesus three times before they finally managed it when they sent Him to the cross?

The two witnesses are in Jerusalem or at least in close proximity as they die where the Lord was crucified and, "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." 

They will not be well liked by most people. "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." - Rev 11

The history of the Jewish people is one of disdain for the people of the Most High God. Individuals of Jewish blood were amazing people of faith in God but the nation of Israel rejects the Lord or they would not have killed Jesus but worshiped Him, nor would they have persecuted His followers and put them to death. 

[dhchristian]

8 hours ago, douggg said:

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Israel will not celebrate the appearance of the two witnesses.    Israel and the world will view them as quacks.    And will try to ignore them.

It will not be until the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood, that the Jews take the two witnesses seriously for real, and all the prophesying that the two witnesses had been making against their perceived messiah was for real.

It will be only be 144,000 Jews who take the two witnesses for real when they first appear and start prophesying against the perceived messiah.    The rest fall into line when the Antichrist commits his audacious act.

Doug,

I Would group Israel in with "they that dwell upon the earth", as they dwell upon the earth, do they not? 

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. (rev. 11:13)

Now if you go back to the sixth trumpet it is said that repentance was not found any longer among the nations. 

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: (9:20)

So this remnant that realized they had done something wrong began to give glory to God, this is the start of the redemption of Israel. This is when their eyes begin to be opened to see the truth of who their Messiah truly is, "him whom they have pierced" (Zech. 12:10ff). Is this the 144k, Yes probably as they were set aside for this to follow Jesus wherever he goes. This is also simultaneous with the rapture as well. All that we have left on the earth are Jews, and the wicked of the nations, and the apostate church. These verses are significant markers in revelation. 

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's probably just for show the place is set at the table for Elijah. The very last thing the Jewish people will accept is a prophet of the Most High.

It took less than 40 days for the Israelites to turn on Moses when he went up on the mount. They claim to revere Moses yet did nothing but complain the entire time after their delivery from Egypt.

If the Jews would accept such a prophet would they have tried to kill Jesus three times before they finally managed it when they sent Him to the cross?

Very true. And it's very true that Moses turned Water into blood, and Elijah made it not rain in Israel, Thus this descriptive being a pointer to them. But it still does not forego the fact that Israel will be looking for Elijah, and they will be looking for a prophet like Moses as their messiah, and that Satan will likely mimic these two as the beast and the false Prophet. Part of the testifying of these two is that Jesus is the Messiah, Hence their resurrection is seen by Israel as a confirmation of the Jesus being the Messiah and results in the remnant glorifying God in fear. 

Now, let's look at a past type of Elijah, and that is John the Baptist. He had the Spirit of Elijah, yet he was a distinct person birthed by Elizabeth. The two witnesses will also be the same, and one of them can have the Spirit of John. So this does not rule John out, in my opinion. 

 

[dhchristian]

7 hours ago, Sister said:

And the next verse.....

  John 21:23   Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

I think it clarifies that Jesus did not imply that John should not die, but even if he did allow him to tarry, it's of no concern to them. A big "if" in there.  The disciples understood wrong.  They were not given the holy spirit yet.

 

Plus it's only appointed once for men to die.  Moses is dead.  John is dead.  Only two men never died - Enoch and Elijah.  This makes more sense to me now. 

  Hebrews 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Before I I wrong and thought Elijah and Moses because of the transfiguration.  That transfiguration was just a "glimpse" of "the kingdom of God"  There are more than two in the kingdom of God.  John is one of the 12 foundations.

Welcome to the discussion Sister,

Re-read John 21:23 with the mindset that John is one of the two witnesses, and you can see this as a proof for him being one of the two witnesses, even with the "if" in there. Meaning if it is the will of God to do so, he can. We cannot limit God to accomplish the supernatural because of constraints put on us living in the natural world. When God asked Ezekiel can these dry bones live, He did not say yes or no, he said "Lord thou knowest". This answer is the only right answer in this case, and is the point of this whole post.

What is impossible with man is possible with God. 

[douggg]

42 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

 

I Would group Israel in with "they that dwell upon the earth", as they dwell upon the earth, do they not? 

It is after the death of the two witnesses that them who dwell on the earth rejoice.      The Jews are not part of that rejoicing group,  because it is the two witnesses who had been making it possible for the Jews to flee into the mountains, to escape .

42 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. (rev. 11:13)

Now if you go back to the sixth trumpet it is said that repentance was not found any longer among the nations. 

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: (9:20)

I understand your point to be right before the 7th trumpet sounds, there is the earthquake, and them not killed by it, repent and acknowledge God.     But how is that so when the 6th trumpet says, men repented not?

The answer is that the 7th trumpet on the timeline, sounds independent of the judgments by the other trumpets.  

The 7th trumpet will sound just a little past the midpoint, right after the earthquake, which follows the two witnesses called up to heaven on day 1263.5.

Once the 7th trumpet sounds and Satan and his angels are cast down to earth, that is when the 6 trumpet judgements begin.

42 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

So this remnant that realized they had done something wrong began to give glory to God, this is the start of the redemption of Israel. This is when their eyes begin to be opened to see the truth of who their Messiah truly is, "him whom they have pierced" (Zech. 12:10ff). Is this the 144k, Yes probably as they were set aside for this to follow Jesus wherever he goes. This is also simultaneous with the rapture as well. All that we have left on the earth are Jews, and the wicked of the nations, and the apostate church. These verses are significant markers in revelation.  

The Jews will realize that they missed the mark with Jesus, once out of nowhere the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.      It will surely be a time of being mortified by the act, and hardly can believe the reality of what just happened, but the Jews will quickly come to the realization that Jesus is the messiah.

When Jesus appears in heaven in the sixth seal, as the cosmos is parted, and seen by all in the world, near the very end of the seven years,  it will be an overwhelming emotional event for the Jews, who will be Christians by that time.   It will be the high point of creation, the revealing of Jesus in His Power and Glory.    And the worst nightmare for the wicked, the beast, the false prophet, and Satan.

The rapture timing, I am going to not get into, unless the thread is dedicated especially to it, because it can take over a thread.

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by douggg

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Re-read John 21:23 with the mindset that John is one of the two witnesses,

Why not re-read with the mindset John is a unicorn?

Preconceptions are manipulations.