Identifying John as one of the two witnesses

[dhchristian]

Just now, Diaste said:

Why not re-read with the mindset John is a unicorn?

Diaste here is what I wrote Sister in its full context.

Welcome to the discussion Sister,

"Re-read John 21:23 with the mindset that John is one of the two witnesses, and you can see this as a proof for him being one of the two witnesses, even with the "if" in there. Meaning if it is the will of God to do so, he can. We cannot limit God to accomplish the supernatural because of constraints put on us living in the natural world. When God asked Ezekiel can these dry bones live, He did not say yes or no, he said "Lord thou knowest". This answer is the only right answer in this case, and is the point of this whole post.

What is impossible with man is possible with God."

Do you think that God is incapable of doing this? Then you are guilty of Limiting God, and putting him in the box of your understanding. If you are honest with yourself, you will see that your defensive response here to comment I did not make to you is a result of conviction, Some people resist conviction, to their detriment, others learn form it. Saying "Lord thou Knowest" is the ultimate example of humility. The last line being what Jesus himself said...

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Matt. 19:26)

Before you come back with another snooty remark such as this, why not examine yourself first. Conviction does not come from me, but from the Holy Ghost.

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

It is after the death of the two witnesses that them who dwell on the earth rejoice.      The Jews are not part of that rejoicing group,  because it is the two witnesses who had been making it possible for the Jews to flee into the mountains, to escape .

Show me scripture that supports this claim

 

3 hours ago, douggg said:

I understand your point to be right before the 7th trumpet sounds, there is the earthquake, and them not killed by it, repent and acknowledge God.     But how is that so when the 6th trumpet says, men repented not?

This is my point your echoing. We have the Jews eyes finally being opened that Jesus was their Messiah, when they see the resurrection of the dead. 

 

3 hours ago, douggg said:

The answer is that the 7th trumpet on the timeline, sounds independent of the judgments by the other trumpets.

I agree with this, but I place the seventh trumpet at the very end of the week. The two witnesses finish their ministry during the time of the sixth trumpet. 

The rest is arguing timelines, and if you ain't got the beasts right you ain't got the timelines right. 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Why not re-read with the mindset John is a unicorn?

Preconceptions are manipulations. 

 

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Diaste here is what I wrote Sister in its full context.

Welcome to the discussion Sister,

"Re-read John 21:23 with the mindset that John is one of the two witnesses, and you can see this as a proof for him being one of the two witnesses, even with the "if" in there. Meaning if it is the will of God to do so, he can. We cannot limit God to accomplish the supernatural because of constraints put on us living in the natural world. When God asked Ezekiel can these dry bones live, He did not say yes or no, he said "Lord thou knowest". This answer is the only right answer in this case, and is the point of this whole post.

What is impossible with man is possible with God."

 

Doesn't Zechariah 4 preclude John from being one of the two witnesses?

I think you were closer when you theorized the law and the prophets.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Doesn't Zechariah 4 preclude John from being one of the two witnesses?

I think you were closer when you theorized the law and the prophets.

Zech. 4 Talks of the two offices of Priest and King, and in this prophecy is a reference to Zerubbabel and Joshua. Another example would be Moses and Aaron. Israel right now has no light, and has no king and High priest. The Messiah holds these two offices together. This fact almost determines the opposite, that the two witnesses will not be Jews, because they witness for Jesus, and the fact that he is the Messiah.... I suppose they could be messianic Jews, but they are not practicing Judaism.

RE: The law and the prophets were until John (the Baptist) since then the Gospel of the kingdom and the Gospel of grace is preached. See Luke 16:16. Elijah and Moses represented the Law and the Prophets and they pointed to Jesus. This time it will be the Prophets and the apostles that testify, For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19:10), and the Apostles were Told when "the comforter has come He will testify of Me", Meaning the two witnesses are empowered by the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth. As Far as I Know, Practicing Jews are missing this comforter... Correct?

[Last Daze]

21 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Zech. 4 Talks of the two offices of Priest and King, and in this prophecy is a reference to Zerubbabel and Joshua. Another example would be Moses and Aaron. Israel right now has no light, and has no king and High priest. The Messiah holds these two offices together. This fact almost determines the opposite, that the two witnesses will not be Jews, because they witness for Jesus, and the fact that he is the Messiah.... I suppose they could be messianic Jews, but they are not practicing Judaism.

RE: The law and the prophets were until John (the Baptist) since then the Gospel of the kingdom and the Gospel of grace is preached. See Luke 16:16. Elijah and Moses represented the Law and the Prophets and they pointed to Jesus. This time it will be the Prophets and the apostles that testify, For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19:10), and the Apostles were Told when "the comforter has come He will testify of Me", Meaning the two witnesses are empowered by the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth. As Far as I Know, Practicing Jews are missing this comforter... Correct?

My view of the two witnesses runs more on the spiritual side, something akin to those who visited Abraham at Mamre and rescued Lot.

When their testimony is finished, the two witnesses are overcome by an evil spirit being.  Why not the human man of sin?  Because the two witnesses are spirit beings.  Their manifestation in the natural realm, as I see it, can be either taking on human form (as those who rescued Lot), or they can influence/empower humans such as in the case of John the baptizer (coming in the spirit and power of Elijah).  Either way, I see them as primarily spiritual beings either working  as, or through, humans.  At this point, I lean toward working as.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

My view of the two witnesses runs more on the spiritual side, something akin to those who visited Abraham at Mamre and rescued Lot.

When their testimony is finished, the two witnesses are overcome by an evil spirit being.  Why not the human man of sin?  Because the two witnesses are spirit beings.  Their manifestation in the natural realm, as I see it, can be either taking on human form (as those who rescued Lot), or they can influence/empower humans such as in the case of John the baptizer (coming in the spirit and power of Elijah).  Either way, I see them as primarily spiritual beings either working  as, or through, humans.  At this point, I lean toward working as.

great points. I still think they are men, but empowered By God in unique way, that no man can kill them.

[Last Daze]

On 7/29/2019 at 1:25 PM, dhchristian said:

Written in 90-95 ad, the book of Revelation was written well after the destruction of the temple in 70 ad. There was no temple for him to go and measure, meaning that he was transported in this vision to the future temple to measure it.

Or . . . . . the temple that John was to measure is a reference to the new covenant temple, the body of Christ. 

• Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.  Revelation 11:1

Physical measurements are curiously absent.  As I understand it, the events that take place during the ministry of the two witnesses will measure the faithfulness and perseverance of the saints.  Physical stature is irrelevant.

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Or . . . . . the temple that John was to measure is a reference to the new covenant temple, the body of Christ. 

• Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.  Revelation 11:1

Very true, we are living stones in that heavenly temple. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

On 7/29/2019 at 12:25 PM, dhchristian said:

Written in 90-95 ad, the book of Revelation was written well after the destruction of the temple in 70 ad. There was no temple for him to go and measure, meaning that he was transported in this vision to the future temple to measure it.

Or . . . . . the temple that John was to measure is a reference to the new covenant temple, the body of Christ. 

• Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.  Revelation 11:1

There is not a single verse in Revelation that speaks of an earthly temple. From the blog post The Temple-Sanctuary and Court of Revelation 11:

The Temple-Sanctuary and Court of Revelation 11

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise, and measure the naos [lit. sanctuary] of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 But the court which is outside of the naos cast out and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles; and the holy city they shall tread under foot forty-two months.

The Greek term naos does not mean a whole temple complex, for which the Greek word hieron is used. Naos refers only to a temple’s innermost holy place, its sanctuary. The word hieron is never used in Revelation. A naos is mentioned 16 times:
– 10 of them directly speak of it being “in heaven,” or are linked to a near verse that does: 11:19 (twice); 14:15, 17; 15:5, 6, 8 (twice); 16:1; 16:17 ;
– 2 of them refer to it being the Holy One Himself: 21:22 (twice);
– 2 more of them, 3:12 and 7:15, also are clearly heavenly, but you can check them out for yourself to decide.

NOT A SINGLE VERSE in Revelation speaks of a “Temple/naos on earth,” or “in Jerusalem,” or “in the holy city.” Therefore, there is no good reason to presume an earthly exception for the other two uses of naos in Rev. 11:1-2; especially since later in the chapter, verse 19 says “the naos in heaven.”
 

Questions: How could the outer court of a heavenly sanctuary be trampled by the Gentiles? And when it says “don’t measure the outer court, as it is given over to the Gentiles” – could that be the case in heaven?

Answer: Let’s read it literally: “And the court the [one] external/outside [G1855 exothen] of the sanctuary expel [G1544 ekballo (from G1537 ek/out of + G906 ballo/throw)] out [G1544 exo]…”

Clearly, the exterior court of God’s sanctuary is to be cast out outside – but outside of what? Outside of heaven, that is, the realm of God’s Presence, is the reasonable answer.

The outer court of the earthly Temple in Old Testament days was the Court of the Gentiles. There, uncircumcised and unsanctified Gentiles were allowed, but no closer. In heaven, no unsanctified souls will be allowed to remain at all. Therefore, this place for the congregation of unsanctified ones cannot be allowed to remain near the heavenly sanctuary, the place of the Presence of God. ...

Finally, let us now turn this whole debate upon its head, and consider the proposed alternative. If this is a physical temple and court, as so many believe, then how could John – because that is whom the angel is addressing – bodily pick up the court and cast/throw it? And yet the Gentiles in it remain alive to “tread the holy city underfoot”? That whole scenario is patently absurd.

The only sense in which a temple court filled with a vast number of people (souls) could be expelled would be in the spiritual sense. And for this we have clear precedence, with scriptures that speak about Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven, and the spiritual ruler of Tyre being “cast…out of the [heavenly] mountain of God.” Ezek. 28:16, 14

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1117-the-temple-sanctuary-and-court-of-revelation-11/

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

On 7/29/2019 at 12:25 PM, dhchristian said:

Think about this, Jesus said of John, answering Peter's question about John and his means of death, said; "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (John 21:22)

Is this proof that John is one of the two witnesses? No, But it certainly does sound like he will be one of them...

Rev. 10:11 And he {alt. they} said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”

I doubt if this has been fulfilled as of yet.

P.S. Appreciate the thoughtful and meaty issues you've recently been bringing up. You've obviously done a lot of homework. Welcome to Worthy.