Identifying John as one of the two witnesses

[dhchristian]

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi dhchristian,

I believe the 2 witnesses are Moses and Elijah because God`s word tells us so. Now to be a witness they would need to have witnessed something. 

They witnessed Christ`s transfiguration where He told them of His soon departure from the earth. They were also at the tomb & witnessed Christ`s resurrection, & later ascension into glory.

    Mount Transfiguration -  `behold 2 men talked with Him (Christ), who were Moses & Elijah,....`(Luke 9: 30)                                 

    The Tomb -  `behold, 2 men stood by them in shining garments.`  (Luke 24: 4)

     The Ascension -  `while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, Behold, 2 men stood by them in white apparel,`  (Acts 1: 10)

                                                 

Thus we see these same 2 men now appearing to Israel during the second half of the tribulation witnessing of Christ, not only as their soon coming King but also as their High Priest, the one who gave His life for them, & arose victorious over sin & death.

BTW, the name is David.. Name was used already when I signed up, so made a quick pseudonym using my initials.

Yes, But John witnesses his whole time of ministry, and is the most qualified of the apostles for this role.

The Basis for the two witnesses is the following:

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. (John 8:17) John was a Human eyewitness to these things, as in a court case.

Look at this too from the intro to revelation.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

And this as well

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 1:9)

This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. (John 21:24)

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

BTW, the name is David.. Name was used already when I signed up, so made a quick pseudonym using my initials.

Yes, But John witnesses his whole time of ministry, and is the most qualified of the apostles for this role.

The Basis for the two witnesses is the following:

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. (John 8:17) John was a Human eyewitness to these things, as in a court case.

Look at this too from the intro to revelation.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

And this as well

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 1:9)

This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. (John 21:24)

Hi David, (dhchristian)

I hear what you are saying, however God`s purposes have more to do than just John eye witnessing these events. God has kept Moses and Elijah as representing the Law & the Prophets to Israel to reveal Christ to His people. They not only can witness to Christ`s sacrifice, resurrection & ascension, but also reveal how Christ fulfilled the Law, the Feasts and was revealed in the Prophets. 

Moses and Elijah are recognised with God`s authority, (by Israel) and have operated with the power that God gives the 2 witnesses.  

Marilyn.

 

[missmuffet]

3 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The Bible says who they are, the problem is the interpretation of they both by speculation, or presumptions, or conjectures, or guessing.

The Bible says the two witnesses are two candlesticks - candlestick is a symbol of the Churches . (Rev.1:v.20) -  and two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof. 

Zech.4:v. 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty golden oil out of themselves? 

From these two gold pipes discharge gold through the two olive trees - two witnesses - two candlesticks - two Churches -, the two anointed ones who have been anointed with oil; they are standing with the Lord of all the land (all Israel) and of the whole earth.
 

Enoch, or Elijah, or Moses, or John the Apostle, any one of them may be considered as one of the two witnesses.  They are not.

 

It is all speculation we don't know. But our world is ripe now for that event to happen. The Bible says the whole world will see them. In the past we did not have the technology for that to happen. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by missmuffet

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

All I am saying is when you refer to God's word, it is taken that you are referring to the printed text which everyone is reading.    I am suggesting that you repackage your words from "tells" to something else like "indicates" when, for example,  it does not directly name the two witnesses in the printed text - which it does not.

When someone says God's word "tells" something, it is the same as saying God says.    Which to claim God said something, which He did not say, is being a false prophet or false teacher.     We need to separate what we conclude or reason or interprete - from what God Himself has actually stated in the text.

Usually it is best to stay away from using these two words in conjunction with each other "God tells".... because those are usually followed up by our own interpretations.    

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dave Robbins and Irving Baxter on their end time ministries videos are always using that terminology or similar to saying God's word tells us.... and then proceed to their interpretation... falsely presenting it as if God Himself spoke their words as being His Words.

For example, they would say God's word tells us World War III will take place soon.     Well, that's not in the text of God Himself saying World War III.     They are creating a false impression, trying to add credence to their interpretation or understanding.   

Hi douggg,

Now it is good that we both agree on who the 2 witnesses are. So it`s just about the wording. Well I agree that people use the terminology, `God tells...` very loosely. However I am not doing that. We both read that God says -

`Then behold, two men talked with Him, (Jesus) who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.` (Luke 9: 30)

So I don`t think that God is keeping Moses and Elijah alive to just to have a little chat with the Lord. Also I don`t believe that God is including `2 men` at the tomb and at the ascension, just for extra people there. We know that all things are to do with the Lord and revealing Him and His purposes. And this specific purpose of the 2 witnesses has to do with Israel and revealing the Lord to them.

Thus for the Holy Spirit to use the term `two men,` and then name them, is a link together. Otherwise he would just have said, Moses and Elijah, without the term, `two men.` Thus `2 men = Moses & Elijah` as God`s word tells us.

Marilyn. 

 

[Sister]

36 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

This is john's way of identifying himself as the author of the Gospel. Here is the incident from the past that this is referring back to in the Gospel.

Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. (John 13:23-24)

John used this means to identify himself in the Gospel he wrote 4 times. (John 20:2, 21:7, 21:20), It is believed that he did this so as not to be confused with John the Baptist. The incident In John 21 is clearly after the resurrection.

Yes, I read the whole chapter again and you are right.  It is after the resurrection.   I stand corrected.  Good job there!

 

Quote

 

John 20:1 is when the resurrection occurs. This obscure way John identifies himself in the Gospel also has a parallel in the way he identifies himself as the one who measures the temple as well, although he does identify himself as John at the beginning and end of Revelation. Was this his way of sealing up while revealing what he was shown?

 

 Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

  Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

  Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Yes, John is told to measure the temple, but it does not provide evidence that he is one of the two witnesses.  That temple and altar he is measuring is not a physical temple, but the Lord's temple on earth which is invisible.  It consists of those who are worshiping in spirit and in truth.  When John took his rod and measured he was not shown the measurements in furlongs or m2, but saw the number of souls in there.   This my friend is what John saw - the 144K.  He saw that number of those mentioned in Rev 7 and Rev 14, and why they were chosen.  This gives us a timeline now that these 144K are the elect, and will not be trodden on by the gentiles when the trib comes.  It also shows that they will be sealed just before the two witnesses come on to the scene.

 

Quote

 

And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. (John 10:4)

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. (Rev. 22:10) 

 

John was shown something else he wasn't allowed to disclose to us, but the rest of the book is open.

Jesus was the one who opened the seals which is why the book has been opened up to us.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Oh Marylin, my beloved sister in Christ

You are interpreting Scriptures by the letter; the letter kills, the Spirit gives life.  

The context of the 2 witnesses I see that it describes not as being 2 people, but two candlesticks and two olive trees standing before the God of the earth. Rev. 11:v.4

These two Candlesticks are Churches and the two olive trees are two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves through two olive branches, and they are upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof.
 

Scriptures or Word of God have answer for all your questions, you will find them if you seek them. By the way, if you want to know what means, for example, " - clothed in sackcloth - " read Esther chapter 4.

In Christ JESUS

Oseas

 

Hi Oseas,

God`s word clearly says -

`These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.` (Zech. 4: 14)

Nothing to do with the Body of Christ. It is all about the Lord and His ministry to Israel.

And it seems to me you are interpreting this passage by your imagination.

Marilyn.

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

10 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Right Marilyn churches do not burn people with fire.

I have no idea who the two witnesses are .    But ponder this .    Therefore since you have said these things ,

I will make you words as fire and this people as stubble etc .     Does the LORD not tell that to ezzekial .  

Tis the word of the Lord that shall be our judge .    I think the fire coming out of their mouths , represents what it did in the days of ezzekial.

And those who reject it will be destroyed of the Lord .      Ponder on that for a bit .   because I have noticed many things written in revelation

can be found in the old test examples .   Just as the earth swallowed up those in the days of korah .     We also notice the earth opens its mouth

and swallows up the flood of men .   Ezzekial when he spoke did not literally burn men with fire ,   He spoke truth and then those who rejected

were later judged by God under judgment .    Just as Jesus had said   ,  I came not to judge ,  but that His word will be the judge on the last day .

 

[Mary8]

I didn't write that, I replied saying only that I wanted to print off his original post (Identifying John...).   I mentioned Matthew quote because it is about the Dan. 9 temple.

[Mary8]

Hi Oseas,

I didn't write that, I replied saying only that I wanted to print off his original post (Identifying John...).   I also mentioned Matthew quote because it is about the Dan. 9 temple.

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thus when the Holy Spirit tells us who the 2 men are with Jesus, Moses and Elijah, then when those men are mentioned again & again, we KNOW who they are - Moses & Elijah. We see that these 2 men witnessed special events concerning the Lord; they had talked with Jesus of His upcoming departure, (death) they were at the empty tomb, (His resurrection), & they witnessed Jesus` ascension.

Good connection Marilyn.  What do you think of the two who were with the Lord when He met Abraham at Mamre (Genesis 18)?  Were they manifestations of the two witnesses as well?

Moses and Elijah were certainly the faces of the law and the prophets but aren't the law and the prophets an expression of something greater than two men?

Jesus sets the precedent of abstraction with his cousin John.

• And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.  He who has ears to hear, let him hear.  Matthew 11:14-15

John's ministry was carried out in the power and spirit of Elijah (Luke 1:17)  Having "ears to hear" always refers to a spiritual understanding.  It may very well be that God sends Moses and Elijah as the faces of the two witnesses.  However, the two witnesses are primarily spiritual entities.  They are seen as the law and the prophets, two lampstands, and two olive trees. 

The spiritual realm is rather mysterious so I can't be dogmatic about it but I see the two witnesses primarily as spiritual messengers of truth and judgment.  The "skins" they wear are, to me, of secondary importance.  Truth and judgment provide light, hence the olive oil and lampstands.  The law revealed truth and the prophets spoke judgment.  Those who walk in the truth and yield to God's judgment (reproof) are those whose lamps stay lit.

The two witnesses will bear witness of the truth and bring judgment on those who reject it.