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Identifying John as one of the two witnesses


dhchristian

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18 hours ago, eileenhat said:

How would a prophet from another era be mentally capable of dealing with the modern era?  ie. They wouldn't.

In fact, no where in scripture does any man come back to life that no longer has a body to return to.  Once the body is dust, that is that.

God however can resurrect human souls as Rev. 20:4 mentions.

John the Baptist had the Spirit of Elijah in him, and so I think the Spirit of John could also be revived. Also, Moses re-appeared bodily on the mt. of transfiguration, His Body was dust. 

Do You believe in the Bodily resurrection of the saints? Did Jesus rise from the dead bodily? 

Of all the people from scriptures who would be mentally capable of dealing with the modern era, it would be john, since he saw this time in visions. 

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15 hours ago, Sister said:

Yes, John is told to measure the temple, but it does not provide evidence that he is one of the two witnesses.  That temple and altar he is measuring is not a physical temple, but the Lord's temple on earth which is invisible.  It consists of those who are worshiping in spirit and in truth.  When John took his rod and measured he was not shown the measurements in furlongs or m2, but saw the number of souls in there.   This my friend is what John saw - the 144K.  He saw that number of those mentioned in Rev 7 and Rev 14, and why they were chosen.  This gives us a timeline now that these 144K are the elect, and will not be trodden on by the gentiles when the trib comes.  It also shows that they will be sealed just before the two witnesses come on to the scene.

Good answer.. 

 

15 hours ago, Sister said:

John was shown something else he wasn't allowed to disclose to us, but the rest of the book is open.

Jesus was the one who opened the seals which is why the book has been opened up to us.

Or it is hidden in plain sight scattered throughout the Revelation awaiting the time of unsealing? 

As an example of this Go into psalm and read the Psalms of Asaph. This is a book of prophecy within a book. Yes they are Psalms (songs), But Psalms are very Prophetic. 

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On 7/29/2019 at 6:57 PM, Diaste said:

There are two recorded instance of people who did not die and were taken to heaven alive: Enoch and Elijah. The criteria is "Taken to heaven alive without dying" based on "it is given to men once to die, then the resurrection". Moses would not fit this criteria, as you say, he died and was buried.

Elijah will come first and restore all things before the Lord returns. I assume he is one witness. He also did not die a physical death. Enoch did not die a physical death. Literally the only reason I think he is the other witness as it is the one similarity between the two they share with no one else. If they are the two witnesses then it would fulfill the spiritual decree that they should die a physical death at some point. 

I don't think it would be fair for Moses to die, come back, then be killed by the beast and die a second time. 

As far as I know all people have died a physical death (except those alive right now) except two, and those two are coming back.

 

Hi Diaste,

I'm by no means dogmatic with my thoughts and some valid points have been made. I suspect for sure Elijah will be one of the witnesses, the Bible seems to be pretty clear on that one. It's very interesting the Apostle John was brought up, I've never really heard that before. There are a number of people whom were resurrected in the Bible that had to die a second death; Jesus' friend Lazarus being the most famous. 

I personally lean toward Moses as being the other witness. IF Enoch is a type, figure and shadow of the Rapture, which I think most likely, then that would eliminate Enoch. The generation that experiences the Rapture does not or will not ever die. Even the scripture given about Enoch seems to fit the Rapture.

Genesis 5:24 (KJV) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 (KJV) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

A question has to be asked: Exactly what is a witness, and to witness what? Two men were recorded at the tomb of Jesus and stated He was not there, He had risen. We're not told whom those two men were, but shortly prior to that Jesus, Moses and Elijah were talking about something at the Transfiguration. Again we are not told but, how did Peter, James and John know it was Moses and Elijah that was talking with our Lord? It seems plausible the Lord was speaking to and instructing Moses and Elijah concerning His death, burial and resurrection. 

One thing I can say with certainty, this debate has gone on for centuries...

 

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4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

 

Or it is hidden in plain sight scattered throughout the Revelation awaiting the time of unsealing? 

As an example of this Go into psalm and read the Psalms of Asaph. This is a book of prophecy within a book. Yes they are Psalms (songs), But Psalms are very Prophetic. 

Hi dhchristian

Yes there are many things hidden in plain sight which is why the truth is given precept upon precept, line upon line, a little here and a little there.  We have to put it together to get to the deep things.  The Word can help us unlock something or it can be our stumbling block.  If we have found something and not sure if our revelation is correct or not, and seeking with a pure heart for the love of the truth, God will provide a scripture that either will support or throw the idea out completely by showing something in his word that is contrary to our belief. 

That contradiction I was shown a while back regarding the two witnesses was this scripture that I had read a million times but not completely understood;

Hebrews 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I reasoned like you did saying to myself that this was true but there were exceptions to this rule.....thinking of Lazarus brought back from the dead.  But then one day it hit me clearly and I saw it as part of the clue to the two witnesses,..this rule that says we are appointed once to die.  It doesn't say if Lazarus died again, but it said that the Jews sought to kill him.   Either way he experienced his first death.  It was a big light bulb moment for me.  Only two men throughout history have not died, and that was Enoch and Elijah.  Jesus said "in my Father's house are many mansions".  They have obviously been taken to one of those mansions and kept for the end times which is why they never died.  They have not ever experienced their first death, but will when they return after their testimony is completed.  God is sending two prophets from the old testament for Israel.  Israel do not accept the NT prophets, so it will be more effective that two of their "father's" be sent.  Enoch was right from the beginning.  Abraham is of his seed.  Please just ponder over this for a while - two men that never saw death ever.  Can only die once.  Their death is delayed until the end times.

Edited by Sister
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12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Good connection Marilyn.  What do you think of the two who were with the Lord when He met Abraham at Mamre (Genesis 18)?  Were they manifestations of the two witnesses as well?

Moses and Elijah were certainly the faces of the law and the prophets but aren't the law and the prophets an expression of something greater than two men?

Jesus sets the precedent of abstraction with his cousin John.

  • And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.  He who has ears to hear, let him hear.  Matthew 11:14-15

John's ministry was carried out in the power and spirit of Elijah (Luke 1:17)  Having "ears to hear" always refers to a spiritual understanding.  It may very well be that God sends Moses and Elijah as the faces of the two witnesses.  However, the two witnesses are primarily spiritual entities.  They are seen as the law and the prophets, two lampstands, and two olive trees. 

The spiritual realm is rather mysterious so I can't be dogmatic about it but I see the two witnesses primarily as spiritual messengers of truth and judgment.  The "skins" they wear are, to me, of secondary importance.  Truth and judgment provide light, hence the olive oil and lampstands.  The law revealed truth and the prophets spoke judgment.  Those who walk in the truth and yield to God's judgment (reproof) are those whose lamps stay lit.

The two witnesses will bear witness of the truth and bring judgment on those who reject it.

Hi Last Daze,

I believe God`s word says that scripture points to the Lord.

`And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He (Jesus) expounded to them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.` (Luke 24: 27)

Thus I see that the 3 men were the Lord in His pre-manifestation, and two angels. (Gen. 19: 1)

 

The spirit realm is made quite clear to us as the ministry of the angelic beings to man, and the demonic spirits that rob, kill and destroy.

 

As to `truth and judgment,` those are aspects of Christ. We are told He is the truth, and He has been given judgment by the Father. Truth and Judgment are NOT spirit entities.

The 2 witnesses, Moses and Elijah, speak first hand of God`s law and how the Lord fulfilled this, plus the prophet`s message of the coming Christ which is the Lord. Moses and Elijah were able to first hand speak of the Lord as they talked to Him and saw for themselves how He died, rose again and ascended into heaven.

Scripture all points to the Lord, His character and His purposes. Move away from there and you get into vain imaginings. Very dangerous.

regards, Marilyn.

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9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thus I see that the 3 men were the Lord in His pre-manifestation, and two angels. (Gen. 19: 1)

The Lord and two angels.  Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

As to `truth and judgment,` those are aspects of Christ. We are told He is the truth, and He has been given judgment by the Father. Truth and Judgment are NOT spirit entities.

I did not say that truth and judgment were the two witnesses or "spirit entities", Marilyn.  I said that the two witnesses "bear witness of" truth and bring judgment.  That's what witnesses do.  They bear witness of someone or something else

It's fine if you don't agree with my view but please don't twist what I say.

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12 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hi Diaste,

 There are a number of people whom were resurrected in the Bible that had to die a second death; Jesus' friend Lazarus being the most famous.

 

But we do not know that from scripture. The texts are silent on the ultimate destiny of those raised from the dead by Jesus. I have pondered what occurred with Lazarus and the people who rose from the graves at the resurrection of Jesus and it seems three things may have happened: they all lived out their lives and died of old age, accidents, martyrdom, etc., or they were taken with Jesus to heaven at some point before or after the ascension or, they may have over time and silently simply disappeared as God took each to heaven in the least disruptive and inconspicuous manner. Since the ascension is recorded and there is no mention of many souls ascending with the Lord, any ascension of a group may not have occurred then.

But if we say any had to die a second physical death it's a contradiction of the inspired words of Paul in Hebrews 9; "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" 

If this is true then any who died and were resurrected face only judgement and not a 2nd physical death. The second death I do see in Scripture is here:

“The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” - Rev 21

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." - Rev 2

"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them..." - Rev 20

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."  Rev 20

So then any second death is spiritual separation from God and a place in the lake of fire, not a physical death.

Maybe it's a collective sense of life and death that leads us to think these resurrected by Jesus must have lived a number of years and then died again and I understand that. But if scripture is true and Paul is telling us truth it seems impossible these died twice before the judgment.

 

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5 minutes ago, Diaste said:

But we do not know that from scripture. The texts are silent on the ultimate destiny of those raised from the dead by Jesus. I have pondered what occurred with Lazarus and the people who rose from the graves at the resurrection of Jesus and it seems three things may have happened: they all lived out their lives and died of old age, accidents, martyrdom, etc., or they were taken with Jesus to heaven at some point before or after the ascension or, they may have over time and silently simply disappeared as God took each to heaven in the least disruptive and inconspicuous manner. Since the ascension is recorded and there is no mention of many souls ascending with the Lord, any ascension of a group may not have occurred then.

But if we say any had to die a second physical death it's a contradiction of the inspired words of Paul in Hebrews 9; "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" 

If this is true then any who died and were resurrected face only judgement and not a 2nd physical death. The second death I do see in Scripture is here:

“The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” - Rev 21

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." - Rev 2

"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them..." - Rev 20

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."  Rev 20

So then any second death is spiritual separation from God and a place in the lake of fire, not a physical death.

Maybe it's a collective sense of life and death that leads us to think these resurrected by Jesus must have lived a number of years and then died again and I understand that. But if scripture is true and Paul is telling us truth it seems impossible these died twice before the judgment.

 

Well, you and I raise some points that can't be verified by scripture; as scripture seems to be silent on this subject. 

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 

I agree, it doesn't say two or more times, but once. My human thinking suggests that those whom Jesus resurrected from the dead physically would at some point have to return to dust? But again, my thinking could very well be mistaken. I maybe taking this out of context, but how would you interpret the Greek for "unto men" in Hebrews 9:27? Would it be a stretch to interpret it "certain men" [Strong's G444]?

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51 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Well, you and I raise some points that can't be verified by scripture; as scripture seems to be silent on this subject. 

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 

I agree, it doesn't say two or more times, but once. My human thinking suggests that those whom Jesus resurrected from the dead physically would at some point have to return to dust? But again, my thinking could very well be mistaken. I maybe taking this out of context, but how would you interpret the Greek for "unto men" in Hebrews 9:27? Would it be a stretch to interpret it "certain men" [Strong's G444]?

Maybe 'certain men' is valid. Some say it's 'mankind'. I don't know if anyone ever died a 2nd physical death or not as the facts are just not there. It could be, it might not be. The 2nd death is more a spiritual death context where the first would be a physical so is this the truth of the matter and there could be many physical deaths if so required? Because there is a distinction between the two and the second death is clearly not a physical death?

For defining terms I always turn to the Strongs. It looks to me like it's "...it's upon every person to die one time." The term for 'once' even suggests a kind of 'valid occurrence' and it happens 'once and only once'.

But I cannot determine if that suggests ignorance of a resurrection, such as in the case of Lazarus. Lazarus lived, then he died. Then he lived again, does he now die again? Once for each life perhaps?

If there was more evidence I would quickly accept it. For now I'm of the mind it's one physical death, even taking into account a raising from the dead, then judgement.

 

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9 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The Lord and two angels.  Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

I did not say that truth and judgment were the two witnesses or "spirit entities", Marilyn.  I said that the two witnesses "bear witness of" truth and bring judgment.  That's what witnesses do.  They bear witness of someone or something else

It's fine if you don't agree with my view but please don't twist what I say.

Hi last Daze,

My apology, I tend to skim read and thus I didn`t read your post properly. Sorry.

Marilyn.

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