Identifying John as one of the two witnesses

[nobleseed]

On 7/30/2019 at 4:25 AM, dhchristian said:

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I purposely left out the verse numbers and the chapter break located in this passage, Because when read as one this passage point to John, the author of revelation being one of the two witnesses. Written in 90-95 ad, the book of Revelation was written well after the destruction of the temple in 70 ad. There was no temple for him to go and measure, meaning that he was transported in this vision to the future temple to measure it.

On the mount of transfiguration, the two witnesses seen there were Moses and Elijah, Most people see these two as the two witnesses of end times. But what they fail to see is what the two witnesses represent, that being the Law and the prophets. Both the law and the prophets pointed to Jesus. But the second time around the two witnesses will be the prophets and the New Testament, Pointing Jesus as the King of kings and Lord of lords, meaning Elijah and John The apostle will be the two witnesses. Think about this, Jesus said of John, answering Peter's question about John and his means of death, said; "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (John 21:22)

Is this proof that John is one of the two witnesses? No, But it certainly does sound like he will be one of them, and representing the New testament in Christ Jesus, Just like Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the prophets. What are your thought on the identity of the two witnesses, and the basis for this understanding? 

  

u can say this or u can say that but nobody really knows, u could be right but what u say has not been revealed.  it is said do not go beyond what is written, who these men are will be revealed at its proper time just like the child that is born the rev 12.  and we will not know until they come.

[Sister]

21 hours ago, Diaste said:

But we do not know that from scripture. The texts are silent on the ultimate destiny of those raised from the dead by Jesus. I have pondered what occurred with Lazarus and the people who rose from the graves at the resurrection of Jesus and it seems three things may have happened: they all lived out their lives and died of old age, accidents, martyrdom, etc., or they were taken with Jesus to heaven at some point before or after the ascension or, they may have over time and silently simply disappeared as God took each to heaven in the least disruptive and inconspicuous manner. Since the ascension is recorded and there is no mention of many souls ascending with the Lord, any ascension of a group may not have occurred then.

But if we say any had to die a second physical death it's a contradiction of the inspired words of Paul in Hebrews 9; "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" 

If this is true then any who died and were resurrected face only judgement and not a 2nd physical death. The second death I do see in Scripture is here:

“The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” - Rev 21

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." - Rev 2

"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them..." - Rev 20

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."  Rev 20

So then any second death is spiritual separation from God and a place in the lake of fire, not a physical death.

Maybe it's a collective sense of life and death that leads us to think these resurrected by Jesus must have lived a number of years and then died again and I understand that. But if scripture is true and Paul is telling us truth it seems impossible these died twice before the judgment.

 

Excellent reply Diaste.  Good point about the 2nd death and lake of fire.

[dhchristian]

8 hours ago, nobleseed said:

u can say this or u can say that but nobody really knows, u could be right but what u say has not been revealed.  it is said do not go beyond what is written, who these men are will be revealed at its proper time just like the child that is born the rev 12.  and we will not know until they come.

Then Why even read the book of Revelation? Right? (Sarcasm intended)

For too long, men have approached revelation the wrong way. they have approached it as a book that could be figured out with the mind of men. But it is given us to show us the mind of Christ. Once we see the vast superiority of His mind, we can only worship him and say "Holy, Holy, Holy". Man trying to put God in a box of human understanding, Limiting God to the laws of nature, which he created, or forcing his word to fit into our timelines and understanding is severely problematic.

[luigi]

 What was not given to men in the past to understand, is now becoming available to us from the Holy Spirit as we approach the end times. 

Even when Daniel inquired as to the meaning of the prophecy he was given, the angel informed him that the data given him was meant to be understood by the generation at the end times.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Edited August 4, 2019 by luigi

[Sister]

On 8/5/2019 at 12:17 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Yes,  and Judgment was given to the saints of the most High - the true Church of the Lord JESUS - ; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Dan.7:v.22

The saints of the most High shall take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Dan.7:v.18

2 Thes.1:v.7&10 - 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,... 10  to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day. - the seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, in which we are already living and in which John the Apostle was caught (Rev.1:v.10), or the seventh and last millennium.

And the Kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the Kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Dan.7:v.27 

The judgment shall sit, ... Dan. 7:v.26

1 Cor.6:v.2-3 ->  2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Righteousness and Judgment are the foundation of God's throne. Psalms 97:v.2 CJB

The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. Rev. 11:v.15

And the nations were angry (yeah, the nations will be angry), and thy wrath is come - God's wrath is come - , and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that He should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth. Rev.11:v.18  - woe of them all - 

Rev. 21:v.8 -  But the fearful(the cowards), and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

The time is of resurrection

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes.4:v.16-17

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Thes. 4:v.15

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.  Rev. 3:v.21-22

Greetings Oseas Ramos

Diaste helped clarify this for me.  Yes we can die more than once.  People can be "revived", and it happens all the time, even in hospitals to this day.  I cannot use this as a reason now to say the two witnesses are definately not "Moses" or "John" because of this scripture;

 Hebrews 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That is the general rule for all of us, but in the case of many recorded in scripture who were brought back to life, ...for example, 3 in the old Testament, those who Jesus raised, one who Peter raised, and Paul, they only had a "pardon"...in other words their death was cancelled. Erased.  Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.  The first to be "changed", or "quickened".  There is a difference between being 'revived' and being resurrected.

When you bring back someone from the dead in a hospital by giving CPR or mouth to mouth, or a zap to the heart, they are not "resurrected" but only revived.  They stay in their old bodies.  Same thing when Jesus raised up Lazarus from the dead.  He was just revived.

One thing is for sure, only two men on this whole earth did not taste death even once, and that was Enoch and Elijah.  This is what stands out to me.  Something very special about these two.

 

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Hebrews 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That is the general rule for all of us, but in the case of many recorded in scripture who were brought back to life, ...for example, 3 in the old Testament, those who Jesus raised, one who Peter raised, and Paul, they only had a "pardon"...in other words their death was cancelled. Erased.  Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.  The first to be "changed", or "quickened".  There is a difference between being 'revived' and being resurrected.

Some of the Most ardent people that hold to John as being one of the two witnesses are those who hold to the Pre-trib rapture view. John is resurrected at the beginning of the tribulation, and instead of going up remains until the day of the LORD. They use the fact that The verse in OP uses the word Erchomai, as opposed to Parousia for coming, where each word according to them refers to a certain aspect of the second coming, one being associated with the rapture, the other with the day of the LORD.

Now I do not agree with them on everything, but this has to be considered as making John be one of the two witnesses a possibility.  

[Sister]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

 

Now I do not agree with them on everything, but this has to be considered as making John be one of the two witnesses a possibility.  

I personally don't think that Israel will accept a NT prophet.  We will just have to wait and be patient, and in time we will see who they are.  Only then can we say we were right or wrong.