Tzephanyahu Posted July 31, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,625 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 2,033 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/10/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2019 Shalom @lovethelord Thanks for your response. You quoted Paul a lot in your post. Hopefully we both agree, along with the Apostle Peter, that Paul can be hard to understand and is often misinterpreted. I'm sure you and I could exchange quotes from Paul for days on end! So, let's leave Paul aside and only discuss the words of our Lord and our Father through His prophets. One of the quotes you provided was from the Lord. However, it seems you are focusing the on the favourable interpretation (i.e. "no law today") rather than seeing the contextual interpretation. To see what I mean, read the passage again with embolden emphasis: 5 hours ago, lovethelord said: Matthew 22:37-40, “And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” It reads to me as if the Lord is saying "the most vital are these two - every other commandment is secondary to it". You also say the Torah was installed to point people to Christ. I'm not saying I disagree with this, but rather questioning the understanding of that. When you read through the Torah, do you see the commandments as only prophecy or depictions of Messiah? If so, and Torah describes who Messiah is and how He was, shouldn't we listen to Him when He says "follow me"? Or are we to think that, hidden in parables, He was saying "ignore all of the Torah business, just Love God and each other, never mind that old dusty law". IF you can share with me a passage from the Messiah, or the Father, explicitly saying that the Torah will become invalidated after the resurrection, I'll be very interested in considering the matter again. No quotes from Paul though because, as per my first paragraph, the debate will just go on and on. There are not 613 commandments to obey. There's repetition in that list, some apply to one sex only, some apply only in certain conditions, a lot applies to the Levitical priesthood and many you will be obeying already, naturally. But yes, some require action on our part because we won't be obeying them naturally. That's part of our training though - in righteousness. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit will guide us through Torah accordingly. But learning and following Torah is another way of HOW we love Yahweh. We can understand what it means to love our neighbour, but how do we love Yahweh? Is He ever in need of anything? Is He ever in a position that He needs our help, love or care? So what does He require from us? Is it not faith in His Word and obedience? If we think that loving Him today is just in Sunday songs of praise, we are in danger of making the same mistakes we're meant to learn from the Old Testament... Take away from Me the noise of your songs, For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments. - Amos 5:23 Look, I'm not saying salvation is dependant on Torah observance, but rather, why aim to be called "least in the Kingdom of Heaven"? Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:19 Love & Shalom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who me Posted August 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,298 Content Per Day: 1.73 Reputation: 1,685 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2019 16 hours ago, alaric_w said: By the way, sorry for my comment. Yes the law is still valid and in force. But there is a change. In the old covenant, if you do not obey, God will punish and curse the law breaker. Everyone obeyed God out of fear. (Under old covenant) Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Deuteronomy 5:9 the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me In the new covenant, God has forgiven all our sins (past, present and future). Even when we sinned we are still saved (salvation cannot be lost by our actions), God still blesses and love us. It is his love that causes us to love him back and unknowingly keep his law. (We keep the law by not focusing on the do and don't, rather we keep the law by flowing with the Holy Spirit) (In the new covenant) 1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. Ephesians 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Hebrews 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more. There is a great change before and after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ You still haven't understood either my comment or what Jesus taught. We obey the law not because we have to, but because we want to. We are obeying as a mark, a demonstration of our love for Jesus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaric_w Posted August 1, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 81 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 106 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/10/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, Who me said: You still haven't understood either my comment or what Jesus taught. We obey the law not because we have to, but because we want to. We are obeying as a mark, a demonstration of our love for Jesus. I don't think it is a good idea to focus too much "I, me, myself". Although it will feel good temporary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovethelord Posted August 1, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 667 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 1,540 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2019 Hi Tzephanyahu, Below is how I understand Matthew 22:37-40. Matthew 22:37-40, “And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” 17 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: It reads to me as if the Lord is saying "the most vital are these two - every other commandment is secondary to it". I read that the most vital two commandments are 1) love God first and 2) love our neighbors second. To me "depend" means all the Law and the prophets (fulfilled). The 10 commandments are very important and we know no one can fulfill them perfectly, however God gives us the #1 mandate which is "Love". When we love others it naturally flows that we won't intentionally hurt, cheat, steal, lie, adultery etc... But when we only try to follow the 10 commandments out of obeying the law then it become legalism. In any case, I appreciate your feedback and questions. We each have to ask the Holy Spirit to guide and help us in understanding his Word. I will just end with Jesus words himself below. Again, I thank you for your thoughtful responses. Matthew 5:17-20, “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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