Jump to content
IGNORED

Being a gun owner


Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  28
  • Topic Count:  338
  • Topics Per Day:  0.05
  • Content Count:  15,676
  • Content Per Day:  2.46
  • Reputation:   8,496
  • Days Won:  39
  • Joined:  10/25/2006
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  02/27/1985

3 hours ago, Cletus said:

I am not just quoting you to speak to you but in broader terms of readers.  some of this is to you.  (you are smart)

what you are saying here has worked in some situations, however in others its not been real great results.  drugs that have people totally wacked out of their mind like PCP... the noise of any weapon being loaded has shown(police reports and witnesses who survived) to grab their attention and gravitate towards this noise with all their attention(and intent).  what i am telling you was told to me by LEOs.  not of "local caliber" either.  I do not prepare for least case scenarios.  I expect the worst, but hope for the best. 

handguns of any caliber do not stop people high on PCP unless its a central nervous system shot, from here on out CNS.  center mass shots that do not hit the spine is a timer.  A CNS shot is a switch... they go down.  done and done.  a direct heart shot on an intruder does not make them stop, in fact they can still fight back for up to 45 seconds.  sometimes they go down, sometimes they do not, some are stopped from the shock of oh no i got shot.  a good many times it wont even put them down tho.  In fact handguns do not necessarily stop the threat sometimes even with multiple shots and they are sober, no drugs at all.  when we look at impact force of various rounds pistol calibers are quite low  200-600ft.-lbs of impact energy, depending on caliber.  a 12 gauge, well my shotgun loads, are 12 pellet 00 buck, 2 and 3/4 inch shells.  they deliver over 2000 ft.-lbs of impact energy.

having said that, shotguns require more training than any other platform, and pump shotguns require 2 hands leaving no free hand to maneuver loved ones behind you or open/close and lock doors or whatever you need your free hand to do.  shotguns load slow, unless its magazine fed, one round at a time, two if your good and you practice.  also once the surge of adrenaline kicks in, LEOs refer to this as fight or flight, you do not have as good control over minor muscle groups, i.e., thumbing the slide release lever on a handgun or loading shells into a shotgun.  also shotguns are also more dangerous for innocent bystanders.  i.e. your family. 

most x-special forces guys i have spoken/trained with say the pistol caliber carbine is the best for home defense.  longer barrel means more velocity and very low to no recoil and with hollow points its more devastation .  recoil is the shotguns downfall for a good many.  its just to much for a lot of people to use effectively in stressful situations, or use period.  I still will stick with my shotgun as no other platform can compare to stopping a threat or is even close in effectiveness in CQC.   My advice to anyone is use what you are comfortable with that will do what you need it to.  I would rather not get shot with a 45... or even a 22.  but continue with training.  stay proficient.  keep muscle memory developed. 

in another post you mentioned shotshell loads such as rock salt.  some folks swear by that while others curse it.  here it is... regardless of weapon or caliber... do your own testing.  test the ammo and firearm you will be using.  shoot walls with it.  make them if you have to.  they can be small and on a table.  shoot pork shoulders and ribs.  actually see what will happen and decide if you feel comfortable with the results.  why i say test walls is because whats the layout of your house... how many people live there you do not want a bullet to go thru a wall and hit them?  know what the round will do.  even test on old washers and dryers, old car doors and windshields if you have access to them.  test anything that may be a barrier you need to punch thru... and put a target of meat and bone behind it also.  do not listen to your buddies buddy.  the proof is in the pudding... and if your testing is like mine, that pork meat will be turned to pudding. 

and lastly.  research the laws.  specifically when deadly force is and is not warranted.  if someone attacks you and then runs and you shoot them as they are fleeing.... they are no longer a threat, your life is not in danger and deadly force is not authorized by law.  also laws vary from state to state.  and then we can talk about prison time... and even if you do not get time... there are wrongful death lawsuits, which can and has ruined law abiding citizens lifes... even ones who were in their right to use deadly force.  so make sure you have a good lawyer. also, if someone is standing 20 feet away and they are jabbing a knife in your direction they are not a threat to your life... but if they raise the knife like they will throw it, they have just become a threat to your life and (at least here where i live) deadly force is authorized.  The cops, judges, and prosecutors already have libraries of questions to ask you in court you have not even thought of that will determine guilt or innocence.  

one last thing.  a shotgun at in home ranges still must be aimed, and one can miss.  the pellets do not just spread out like they do in the movies.  if you do not believe it try it with paper targets.  step off the distance from across the room where you may need to defend.  step off the same distance  at the range and try it on paper with the exact ammo you will use to defend, not practice ammo thats cheaper or different and will yield different results.  it takes a little distance before the pellets begin to spread out. 

I am a shot gun guy.  i have handguns and rifles.  but i can switch out a barrel and a feeding tube and a spring and ammo, and i just went from home defense to accurate slug gun able to hit a deers vitals at 150 yards.  another barrel and i am good for birds and rabbits.  its versatile.  with only a couple molds and a ladle and a screwdriver i can utilize wheel weights for lead and make my own projectiles.  all which fits nicely into a small backpack with plenty of room left over.  the shot gun has versatility galore.  there is also something special about sending a .73 caliber projectile down range.  ;) 

 

oh, one more thing.  home invasions.  sometimes they do wear body armor.  a shotgun will catch a slug and stop it, however,  it will still cave in so far the sternum and ribs will break and shatter doing damage to vitals.  its the same concept as the blunderbuss and old metal armor. 

well, you make a valid point-several actually-people on drugs often dont stop...however, racking a shell, doesnt actually hurt you in that case...when I practice with a shotgun I rack the shell as Im raising the rifle to aim...all one smooth motion, by the time the round is chambered the guns to my shoulder and im looking down the barrel at my target...so if he comes after me Im ready to fire. Ever self defense expert I know, recommends a shotgun for home defense for amateur shooters (assuming you can handle it) because realistically, in a home invasion, your not room clearing. your not fighting off a trained attack.  They teach you you lock yourself and your kids in a room-you point the shotgun at the door and if they come through it you pull the trigger. So you are right, in a tactical scenario they require more training, in a typical home invasion, they do not. in fact  you really dont need to do any training-a single shotgun blast at 10 feet is going to decimate any target, your unlikely to miss, and its likely to incapacitate any target on drugs or not, while your right-handgun calibers wont always.

I personally, do not believe in non-lethal loads. I do not keep any around the house. Because while in most cases they do work, they don't always, and when it comes to protecting my family, I want to have the best possible chance of eliminating the threat. with that said, I believe people should do what theyre comfortable with. Some people arn't comfortable with lethal force, but want to protect their family, which is why I suggested non-lethal methods. a shotgun loaded with rock salt is certainly better then no shotgun at all. If the person isnt comfortable with the method of defense they are using, they shouldn't use it. its as simple as that. If someone is willing to fire a shotgun with rock salt no questions asked, then theyre better off then the person with a shotgun loaded with live rounds who hesitates and gets it taken away from them because they wernt comfortable with lethal force to begin with.

Personally I am not a shotgun guy. I own 2, both hunting shotguns. neither ever stay loaded (my 12 gauge has a 28" barrel, really not conducive to self defense) and are not easy access. Im a handgun guy...Im proficient with my handguns, I shoot them regularly, with both practice rounds and the ammo I use for defense, and keep them loaded with ballistic tipped hollowpoints within easy access to where I sleep at night. while i havent taken any "formal" self defense courses, I have gone through the NRAs video series, had my brother (former US army) show me many tricks with handguns, as well as taken many pointers from friends in law enforcement as well as local self defense instructors. 

as far as neighbors argument about noise inside the house...yes shotguns are extremely noisy, inside and out...so are handguns. so are rifles. However, if someones breaking into my home with the intent to do me harm, I very sincerely doubt anyone is going to care about noise. Seriously...hold on robber, lets put on hearing protection before we shoot it out. and not all of us are rich enough for silencers....and shooting a intruder with a silencer attached to your weapon can work against you in court. Youve made some valid points about local laws, which I touched on in my first comment. You want to be within the law-and you don't want to do anything or have anything that can come across as overly aggressive. Shooting someone in the back with a silenced pistol probably wont work for you in court, even if the only reason you got him in the back was because he was ducking behind cover to reload.

everything youve said is true, even what neighbor has said is technically true tactically, im just pointing out that realistically, the vast majority of home invasions arnt by a navy SEAL team. Many are petty thieves out for money for drugs. People like to overthink home defense, and if youve got the time and training, Im never against being prepared. But oftentimes-especially from a busy mom-hiding in your master bathroom with a 12 gauge pointed at the door is extremely effective. And I know, video game reference here, but "camping is a legitimate, and very effective strategy." and honestly, from a legal perspective, its probably the safest strategy if it goes to court. if your hiding in a backroom with a shotgun and end up using it....it would be hard for the prosecution to argue anything but self defense. You wernt hunting them down-you definetly didnt shoot them in the back and you made every effort to avoid a confrontation. And even in states where thats not required, it definetly doesnt hurt your case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  763
  • Topics Per Day:  0.34
  • Content Count:  6,897
  • Content Per Day:  3.09
  • Reputation:   1,976
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  02/15/2018
  • Status:  Offline

17 hours ago, The_Patriot2019 said:

Being a Christian is all about the protection of life. The entire Bible, in one way or another is about life, which is why God allowed for self defense.

Didnt God parted the Red Sea to save the unarmed Hebrew ?

Didnt Jesus rebuked Peter who tried to kill the soldiers at Gethsemane garden ? 

Did Job use weaponry to protect his immense wealth in the lawless ancient world ?

Matt 24: "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold"

Crimes is increased and people turn to gun for protection instead of to God. Love grows cold even in the church.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest PinkBelt
19 hours ago, other one said:

just because one carried a weapon does not mean they are going to kill with everyone with it....    I'm 72 years old and have carried a weapon in either my vehicle or my side my whole life and I have not shot anyone as of this moment.....    but I have stopped several bad things happening to decent people including myself...   I know a half dozen police officers who have never had to draw their weapon and shoot at anyone....    people make way too much to do about carrying a weapon.....  it is just a tool that equalizes people.  you don't have to be bigger or stronger or faster to protect yourself

I have never heard of a gun designed not to kill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  344
  • Topics Per Day:  0.13
  • Content Count:  7,393
  • Content Per Day:  2.70
  • Reputation:   5,321
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  09/27/2016
  • Status:  Offline

20 minutes ago, PinkBelt said:

I have never heard of a gun designed not to kill.

A starters gun, a flare gun, a cap gun, Peter Gunn... Do you know what happens in the Army / Marines when you call your weapon "a gun"?  :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  22
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  903
  • Content Per Day:  0.20
  • Reputation:   516
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  11/01/2011
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/03/1952

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

A starters gun, a flare gun, a cap gun, Peter Gunn... Do you know what happens in the Army / Marines when you call your weapon "a gun"?  :D

::waves hand frantically::  I do.

And I only did it once. *G"

Edited by John Robinson
  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Graduated to Heaven
  • Followers:  57
  • Topic Count:  1,546
  • Topics Per Day:  0.21
  • Content Count:  10,320
  • Content Per Day:  1.42
  • Reputation:   12,323
  • Days Won:  9
  • Joined:  04/15/2004
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  11/05/1951

On 7/30/2019 at 3:52 PM, Figure of eighty said:

 Also think of getting mace and a stun gun..or maybe just mace to put in my purse I think that should do.

Keep in mind that Mace is just a name brand of pepper spray, and that these in general, come in different strength and delivery. Mace sure you understand what you are getting before purchase, some, will bother other people in a closed room, not just the intended target. Sometimes then, and true for 'stun guns' you may not be able to use it against two attackers. If you encounter two perpetrators, what is your plan for that scenario! Just something to think about, not really looking for a reply.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  29
  • Topic Count:  593
  • Topics Per Day:  0.08
  • Content Count:  55,875
  • Content Per Day:  7.55
  • Reputation:   27,624
  • Days Won:  271
  • Joined:  12/29/2003
  • Status:  Offline

5 hours ago, PinkBelt said:

I have never heard of a gun designed not to kill.

Actually the m16 was designed to totally disable the enemy but not necessarily kill him.   This way his friends get busy taking care of him and adds to their distraction.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  28
  • Topic Count:  338
  • Topics Per Day:  0.05
  • Content Count:  15,676
  • Content Per Day:  2.46
  • Reputation:   8,496
  • Days Won:  39
  • Joined:  10/25/2006
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  02/27/1985

9 hours ago, Cletus said:

when being trained for entry teams they teach about those doorways.  they call them a vertical coffin.  they teach to get thru the vertical coffin as quickly as possible when going in and when clearing room to room to minimize risk to the operator.  they also teach what you have said to troops when they need to take a defensive position due to having some that are wounded or are heavily outnumbered or are trapped in a building.  (urban combat)

what you said about noise made a few thoughts come to mind.  firstly, i have been in gunfights indoors.  personally the pain in the ears from the noise which can be a hindrance in a self defense situation went unnoticed by me due to the adrenaline.  you do not feel the pain or even notice it.   long term tho... my sense of hearing is not what it used to be.     another thought on noise is the neighbors, if you have any, will possibly hear and call the police which could be a good thing.  even a 9mm handgun fired indoors is loud.  i forget the exact decibels... i think its like 130-135 somewhere around there or above there that can cause hearing damage.  different peoples ears are more sensitive to noise than others.   but even using suppressors indoors with supersonic ammo can still be loud because all the noise reverbs off the walls and is not able to travel away from you.  I know some x-military guys that say they want a short barrel AR15... one that breaths fire.  i would not want to shoot that indoors.  to each their own, i guess?  the noise could be intimidating to further conflict from an intruder. 

my grandaddy was a marine.  he used a ruger .22 pistol for Home defense, i think it was a mark 2 or a mark 3.  my aunt has it now.  putting the bullet where you want it is more important than power. 

as far as what you have said about pumping a shotgun in the moment... i have read enough of your posts to know that behind your ears its dry concerning firearms... but others are not.  one of the main things i work with people on with shotguns that are newbies is the operation of the pump action.  they do not know its possible to short stroke the pump and cause a real bad jam, one that is difficult to clear and if you have a bad guy moving in your direction this can cost you.  i work with them on this teaching not to be gentle or baby the shotgun, you wont hurt it.  rack it with authority... all the way back, and all the way forward.  some model pumps are more sensitive to this than others.

there are a few suppressors on the market that are quite affordable btw.  they are not super nice features (pretty basic)or made of the high end materials such as titanium and inconel but they do the trick.   one is the same price as the tax stamp, and the other is not much more.  there may be others available but i do not know of any.  its legal to hunt with suppressors here so thats my interest in them.  for hogs when there are multiple hunters, this helps to not blow out each others ear drums... and it also helps to not alert all wildlife of your presence for miles.  with my savage rifle with a medium heavy bull barrel that is threaded (of course) and chambered in .308 win i can use subsonic ammo and be lethal on hogs and deer out to 125-ish yards with a can, and keep hunting the same area undetected.  i have got more than one without climbing down from the stand because of the suppressor.  it sounds like a bb gun.  you must know your hold over down to a science tho.  i also have it topped off with a primary arms acss dmr 308 scope.  which with supersonic ammo is oh so nice out to 1000 yards. 

yes trained operators are trained how to breach doors (for the very reason that choke points make you a easy target) but your average home intruder isnt trained in breaching doors. Im not advising someone on how to protect themselves from a military invasion, just a home intruder.

You do make a very valid point on short stroking a shotgun with the pump....like owning any weapon for self defense, whatever route one chooses, one should practice with the weapon and be familiar with it on a decently regular basis. One should never keep a weapon of any kind-rifle, pistol, shotgun, or even a taser around if they are unfamiliar with the weapon. Any weapon you don't at least have a basic understanding of will be used against you. One should always practice and receive at least some basic training from an experienced shooter before using a firearm for self defense.

My brothers "screw you" gun (hes former military and keeps 4 guns by his bed at all times) is a mossberg 590 with a 18" barrel, pistol grip, and foldable  stock, that he keeps loaded with 3" magum buckshot. Its also the only gun he doesnt keep a round chambered-because he wants the intruder to go "oh crap I picked the wrong house" before he blows him away. and hes deadly with that thing, its a great home defense shotgun (incidently, i havent said this before, but if your going to keep a shotgun in the home for home defense, you probably dont want one with a long barrel) I personally, am not a fan, especially without the foldable stock. I can barely handle it without the stock. He cant even fire more then a round or two. But he also keeps a loaded 9mm and 357 magnum (chambered and all) so he has "options" 

its really the tax stamp thats prohibitive for me. Silencers in my area run 6-800+ for a decent one (i dont want a cheapie) plus the tax stamp, puts it up over a grand for me. and its illegal to hunt with one where I live, so its not worth the expenditure for me. However, wyoming is working on making them legal, once they do I will probably invest in one for my 300 blackout for hunting coyotes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  28
  • Topic Count:  338
  • Topics Per Day:  0.05
  • Content Count:  15,676
  • Content Per Day:  2.46
  • Reputation:   8,496
  • Days Won:  39
  • Joined:  10/25/2006
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  02/27/1985

14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Didnt God parted the Red Sea to save the unarmed Hebrew ?

Didnt Jesus rebuked Peter who tried to kill the soldiers at Gethsemane garden ? 

Did Job use weaponry to protect his immense wealth in the lawless ancient world ?

Matt 24: "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold"

Crimes is increased and people turn to gun for protection instead of to God. Love grows cold even in the church.

 

you make some unbiblical assumptions. especially the unarmed hebrew. Because later in the same book He commanded the hebrews to take the promised land by force and slay all the people in the land. (difficult to do without weapons, don't you think) 

Jesus did rebuke peter for trying to kill the soldiers at the garden, but He did NOT rebuke Peter for having the sword, nor did He tell him to get rid of the sword. In fact, only a few hours earlier He not only told the disciples to sell their cloak to buy a sword, but asked if any carried any and was answered 2, so even if Jesus wasnt omnipotent (which He was) He knew that Peter had the sword. 

matthew 24 is actually taken out of context, and has nothing to do with self defense. You forget in the OT law God allows for self defense. God gave people the ability to protect themselves. And in america, some states more then others, it is legal to protect yourself with a firearm. So owning a firearm does not contribute to lawlessness, the lack of Gods love and sin does (so I guess you have a point there) 

You can't just pick and choose verses to go along with your ideology. You need to read the entire Bible. :)

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  44
  • Topic Count:  229
  • Topics Per Day:  0.06
  • Content Count:  10,900
  • Content Per Day:  2.95
  • Reputation:   12,145
  • Days Won:  68
  • Joined:  02/13/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  08/14/1954

18 minutes ago, The_Patriot2019 said:

You can't just pick and choose verses to go along with your ideology. You need to read the entire Bible. :)

Thank you. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...