Jump to content
IGNORED

Timing of the two witnesses, by working backwards


douggg

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 9/10/2019 at 10:24 AM, iamlamad said:

I have a very good reason for my belief on this parenthesis. I know that the 70th week will be 2520 days long. No longer; no shorter. I know that it will be divided into two halves with 1260 days before and 1260 days after the abomination Jesus spoke of. 

I don't disagree.

On 9/10/2019 at 10:24 AM, iamlamad said:

 and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. 

I have a great deal of difficulty with this as I find no support in scripture. 

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,

and He will reign forever and ever.”

If this is the case, and it is, then I very much doubt the reign of the beast is continuing, nor is the ministry of the two witnesses. The Lord has arrived and is set to reign and everyone else must bow to Him.

So no, the seventh trump does not mark the midpoint, but the days of wrath well past the middle of the week.

On 9/10/2019 at 10:24 AM, iamlamad said:

I know the two witnesses "show up" right where God introduced them to John: in 11:3.  They did not show up in 8:1 when the week began but God failed to show John. 

There isn't much to go on in Rev 11 about 'when' they arrive as no specific time is given. It's not necessary that Rev 11 events occur either before or after any particular event, simply because it's the 11th chapter. In what chapter we find an event has no bearing on the timing or duration or the order of any one or several events.  Rev is NOT strictly chronological. It's more of a successive concurrent form of narrative.

On 9/10/2019 at 10:24 AM, iamlamad said:

I know that the days of GT will not begin until after the warning about the mark in chapter 14. I know that the fleeing as shown in 12:6 must come one or two seconds after the abomination. If 12:6 is only a moment after the abomination, then I know that 1260 days of testifying cannot have taken place in  3 1/2 days! 

Only based on a less than accurate assumption Rev is written strictly chronologically.

On 9/10/2019 at 10:24 AM, iamlamad said:

The ONLY way to make all these things fit is that God introduces JOhn to the two witnesses at the moment in His narrative that they will actually show up - just before the midpoint - 11:3. In fact, it is just 3.5 days before the midpoint. But they John takes us down the entire last 1260 days as a side journey with the two witnesses - as a parenthesis: 4 through 13.

It makes more sense for the two witnesses to arrive at the moment the covenant is confirmed to warn the world about what is coming. The prophesying is far too late once the beast takes power and declares himself god. Logic refutes the ministry of the witnesses in the second half of the week as the ministry must last 1260 days, which would put two of God's people in the great and terrible wrath of the Almighty, which according to God's own words will not happen, and cannot happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't disagree.

I have a great deal of difficulty with this as I find no support in scripture. 

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,

and He will reign forever and ever.”

If this is the case, and it is, then I very much doubt the reign of the beast is continuing, nor is the ministry of the two witnesses. The Lord has arrived and is set to reign and everyone else must bow to Him.

So no, the seventh trump does not mark the midpoint, but the days of wrath well past the middle of the week.

There isn't much to go on in Rev 11 about 'when' they arrive as no specific time is given. It's not necessary that Rev 11 events occur either before or after any particular event, simply because it's the 11th chapter. In what chapter we find an event has no bearing on the timing or duration or the order of any one or several events.  Rev is NOT strictly chronological. It's more of a successive concurrent form of narrative.

Only based on a less than accurate assumption Rev is written strictly chronologically.

It makes more sense for the two witnesses to arrive at the moment the covenant is confirmed to warn the world about what is coming. The prophesying is far too late once the beast takes power and declares himself god. Logic refutes the ministry of the witnesses in the second half of the week as the ministry must last 1260 days, which would put two of God's people in the great and terrible wrath of the Almighty, which according to God's own words will not happen, and cannot happen.

You are reading into the Text what is simply not there.

Suppose there is a court case where someone moved into a house while the owners were on vacation. They come back and find someone living in their home, and they refuse to leave.  They show you a fake deed to the property. They have burned all your paperwork so they don't have a deed you can get to. The owners go to the sheriff, and it ends up in court. The owners hire a good attorney and he gets them their real dead to the property, and the court decides in the real owner's favor: the house is really theirs. But there is a problem: the thieves are still living in your house: the sheriff must evict them forcible. Another problem: the real owner is military reserve and is suddenly called to the Middle East. He must be absent while the Sheriff casts out the house thieves.  However, without the owner pushing the sheriff, he delays and delays - for 3 1/2 years!  When the owner finally returns, the house thieves are still there! He goes back to the sheriff and the sheriff immediately casts the wicked house thieves out!

In the true scenario, Satan usurped Adam's lease  -took over, so to speak - and became the spiritual leader of planet earth. But the court in heaven, at the 7th trumpet, will side with Jesus and declare that earth belongs to the  Lord Jesus Christ. Take note, Jesus remains in heaven: He does not return until chapter 19 - 3.5 years + later. Why? Because He has planned that the Beast will have his 42 months of authority first. It is how He has planned the 70th week from long long ago.  We cannot change His plans.)

The Lord has arrived and is set to reign and everyone else must bow to Him. 

Not here. Not at the 7th trumpet. All the events from chapter 12 to chapter 19 will take place first, before Jesus returns.  You are only imagining that the Lord has arrived. It is not in the text.

Hasn't Jesus BEEN "reigning?" He has certainly be reigning over HIS kingdom: heaven. But on earth that would be only His church.  Until the 7th trumpet, the earth is not His to reign over. He begins reigning over the earth at the 7th trumpet. His plan is that He will not take physical possession of the earth until later, as we read in chapter 19.

So no, the seventh trump does not mark the midpoint,  You can be wrong if you choose to be. Follow me in these scriptures:

Daniel 9: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

 

Note that word "midst." it is the Hebrew word Chatsah: to divide in half. It was used many times to mean "midnight" or half way through the night.

Next, note what happens at the half way point: the sacrifices will cease.  In the case of Antiochus Epiphanes, a TYPE of the Rev. 13 Beast, he entered the most holy place in the temple, instantly defiling it, and set up an image of Zeus there!  From that time, the temple would have to be cleansed (think a red heifer) before the sacrifices could be started again. Back then it was 2300 days before the daily sacrifices started again.

Since this is speaking of a time future yet to us, this also tells us that the Jews will again have daily sacrifices. And for that they will have a new temple.

So what will stop the daily sacrifices this time? Paul tells us: The man of sin is going to enter the most holy place in the temple, just as Antiochus did, and again the temple will be defiled and must be cleansed.  This time the man will declare he is God- the very God of the Jews. (He is in THEIR temple.)

Therefore, according to Daniel, it will be right at the midpoint of the week - on day 1260 from the start - when the man of sin enters the temple.

In Rev. 11:1-2 we see that the city will begin being trampled. The temple will be measured.  I am convinced (I won't say God told me) that this was the man of sin arriving in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. (He MUST be in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem.) It is just days before he will enter the temple: I think 3.5 days to be exact. The two witnesses show up then because the man of sin just showed up (in Jerusalem.) They arrive on earth just 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple.

Now look at what Jesus said:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

When will they begin to flee? When they see the abomination.  Jesus is quoting from Daniel. Daniel said this event would divide the week - and John proves this by giving us the half week in days, in months and in years.

Where they do we see this fleeing in Revelation?

Rev. 12: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

They will begin their flight just seconds after they see the abomination: the man of sin (probably a Gentile) enter the temple and declare that he is God.

Since Rev. 12:6 is just seconds from the abomination that will stop the sacrifices, all we need do is look back for some kind of main line event as a marker.  All of the vials are future to chapter 12.  If we work backward verse by verse, we come to the 7th trumpet. That is why the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

Note that God has given us 5 events that will start at the midpoint and countdown to the end of the week:

1. The 42 months of trampling.

2. The 1260 days of testifying

3. The 1260 days of fleeing

4. The 3.5 years of protection

5. The 42 months of authority.

All of these are events that start at or near the midpoint and go to the end of the week. Therefore the marker for the midpoint MUST BE in one of these 3 chapters.  The fleeing in 12:6 pinpoints it to the 7th trumpet.

Rev is NOT strictly chronological.  This is your opinion and it is an incorrect one. And it is because of your theory here that we disagree. it is an absolute fact that John put the events we read about in chapter 12 AFTER the events we read about in chapter 11. That much cannot be argued.

Did you notice? Rev. 12 begins with "AND" ...which ties it to chapter 11.  Rev. 11 begins with "AND!" which ties it to chapter 10.  Rev. 10 begins with "AND" which ties it to chapter 9! It goes on and on all the way back to chapter 4!   And John started every chapter after that with an "And."

In other words, John is telling us that the events in one chapter were seen happening in the vision AFTER the events of a previous chapter and BEFORE the events of a later chapter. It goes without saying that chapters that detail the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials cannot be rearranged: John himself put in the numbers.  Therefore chapter 6 through 8  must be together because of the 7 seals. Chapters 9 through 11 must be together because of the 7 trumpets.

Chapters 11 through 13 most be together because of the 5 mentions of the countdowns to the end of the week.

In other words, it is really impossible to try and "rearrange" Revelation to make better sense. Worse, it is really silly: it is in God's desired order.  This is why I wrote an axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology in Revelation will be instantly suspect and will be proven wrong.

When I discovered that the 7th trumpet marked the midpoint, I rushed to the 7th vial to read there - and I read, "it is done." I knew at that moment that God had marked the entire week with 7's. I rushed to the 7th seal to confirm that, and saw the 30 minutes of silence.  (God had previously told me [I heard His voice and His words] that I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked, then that I could find the entire week clearly marked - and finally that the marker would be the same for all three.) He also pointed me to these three chapters with the 5 mentions of the 3.5 year period of time. He also said that each one was of an event starting at the midpoint and going to the end of the week.

Therefore I have proven this by scripture, and by the words of Our Lord and Savior.

It makes more sense for the two witnesses to arrive at the moment the covenant is confirmed to warn the world about what is coming.  Not really. God will have 144,000 witnesses going all through Israel during the first half of the week. It is the last half where He will need witnesses, just as He did in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah - but this time He is going to destroy every city on earth!

which would put two of God's people in the great and terrible wrath of the Almighty  I think they will be immune!  God will need SOMEONE in earth who is speaking TRUTH.

As you can see, I have valid reasons for disagreeing with you. I think you are wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are reading into the Text what is simply not there.

Suppose there is a court case where someone moved into a house while the owners were on vacation. They come back and find someone living in their home, and they refuse to leave.  They show you a fake deed to the property. They have burned all your paperwork so they don't have a deed you can get to. The owners go to the sheriff, and it ends up in court. The owners hire a good attorney and he gets them their real dead to the property, and the court decides in the real owner's favor: the house is really theirs. But there is a problem: the thieves are still living in your house: the sheriff must evict them forcible. Another problem: the real owner is military reserve and is suddenly called to the Middle East. He must be absent while the Sheriff casts out the house thieves.  However, without the owner pushing the sheriff, he delays and delays - for 3 1/2 years!  When the owner finally returns, the house thieves are still there! He goes back to the sheriff and the sheriff immediately casts the wicked house thieves out!

In the true scenario, Satan usurped Adam's lease  -took over, so to speak - and became the spiritual leader of planet earth. But the court in heaven, at the 7th trumpet, will side with Jesus and declare that earth belongs to the  Lord Jesus Christ. Take note, Jesus remains in heaven: He does not return until chapter 19 - 3.5 years + later. Why? Because He has planned that the Beast will have his 42 months of authority first. It is how He has planned the 70th week from long long ago.  We cannot change His plans.)

And you say I read into it...

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The Lord has arrived and is set to reign and everyone else must bow to Him. 

Not here. Not at the 7th trumpet. All the events from chapter 12 to chapter 19 will take place first, before Jesus returns.  You are only imagining that the Lord has arrived. It is not in the text.

Hasn't Jesus BEEN "reigning?" He has certainly be reigning over HIS kingdom: heaven. But on earth that would be only His church.  Until the 7th trumpet, the earth is not His to reign over. He begins reigning over the earth at the 7th trumpet. His plan is that He will not take physical possession of the earth until later, as we read in chapter 19.

Ignoring some of the info does not make your take accurate.

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty,

the One who is and who was,b

because You have taken Your great power

and have begun to reign.

18The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.

The time has come to judge the dead,

and to reward Your servants,

the prophets and saints,

and those who fear Your name,

both small and great,

and to destroy

those who destroy the earth.

I don't know if you can see it but you have contradicted yourself.

"Not here. Not at the 7th trumpet. " Then, "He begins reigning over the earth at the 7th trumpet."

 

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is your opinion and it is an incorrect one. And it is because of your theory here that we disagree. it is an absolute fact that John put the events we read about in chapter 12 AFTER the events we read about in chapter 11. That much cannot be argued.

Just because some events were written down at some point in time does not have a bearing on when those events occurred, or will occur. If Revelation was strictly chronological there would be some where around 17 total years if one added up all the mentions of 3.5 years and held them to be strictly chronological. Since that isn't the case a strict chronology is untenable in one easily prove instance. And since the major markers of time in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ are not strictly chronological, then the whole of the book cannot be either.

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did you notice? Rev. 12 begins with "AND" ...which ties it to chapter 11.  Rev. 11 begins with "AND!" which ties it to chapter 10.  Rev. 10 begins with "AND" which ties it to chapter 9! It goes on and on all the way back to chapter 4!   And John started every chapter after that with an "And."

Of course. Doesn't insist on chronology however. Typically the conjunction 'and' means 'also' or it's an emphatic like 'indeed' and context dictates the definition. I do not know of an instance where 'and' means 'next' or 'following this' denoting a timeline.  And you accuse others of reading into the text? 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, John is telling us that the events in one chapter were seen happening in the vision AFTER the events of a previous chapter and BEFORE the events of a later chapter. It goes without saying that chapters that detail the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials cannot be rearranged: John himself put in the numbers.  Therefore chapter 6 through 8  must be together because of the 7 seals. Chapters 9 through 11 must be together because of the 7 trumpets.

No. That is a personal take to fit a personal interpretation. Scripture says no such thing, only Iamlamad says this.

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is why I wrote an axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology in Revelation will be instantly suspect and will be proven wrong.

And? Your words are authoritative why? Who made you an authority? Why should anyone take your words or thoughts as the final judgement on the matter?

Is it because you say you hear directly from Jesus? So what? We all do. What makes you a higher authority than all the other people who either hear Jesus speak to them or who claim Jesus speaks to them?

Honestly, this sort of thing is the weakest link in all your arguments and only proves you'd be a good cult leader.

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When I discovered that the 7th trumpet marked the midpoint,

Extant evidence to the contrary. "I discovered"... Arrogance. Conceit. Self promotion.

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When I discovered that the 7th trumpet marked the midpoint, I rushed to the 7th vial to read there - and I read, "it is done." I knew at that moment that God had marked the entire week with 7's. I rushed to the 7th seal to confirm that, and saw the 30 minutes of silence.  (God had previously told me [I heard His voice and His words] that I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked, then that I could find the entire week clearly marked - and finally that the marker would be the same for all three.) He also pointed me to these three chapters with the 5 mentions of the 3.5 year period of time. He also said that each one was of an event starting at the midpoint and going to the end of the week.

Therefore I have proven this by scripture, and by the words of Our Lord and Savior.
 

I mean, how many times can you point to yourself in just a few sentences? "I, I, I, I..." 

Amazing!

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

  I think they will be immune!  God will need SOMEONE in earth who is speaking TRUTH.

As you can see, I have valid reasons for disagreeing with you. I think you are wrong.

You think? Who cares?

What does Jesus say? That's what matters.

Is your valid reason to disagree your personal feelings that I'm wrong? I'll help you with that. I am wrong. Only what Jesus says is truth. Scripture saith...which is the word of our Lord Jesus Christ and the only reliable truth in existence. Scripture over the word of everyone else, period.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

And you say I read into it...

 

Ignoring some of the info does not make your take accurate.

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty,

the One who is and who was,b

because You have taken Your great power

and have begun to reign.

18The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.

The time has come to judge the dead,

and to reward Your servants,

the prophets and saints,

and those who fear Your name,

both small and great,

and to destroy

those who destroy the earth.

I don't know if you can see it but you have contradicted yourself.

"Not here. Not at the 7th trumpet. " Then, "He begins reigning over the earth at the 7th trumpet."

 

 

Just because some events were written down at some point in time does not have a bearing on when those events occurred, or will occur. If Revelation was strictly chronological there would be some where around 17 total years if one added up all the mentions of 3.5 years and held them to be strictly chronological. Since that isn't the case a strict chronology is untenable in one easily prove instance. And since the major markers of time in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ are not strictly chronological, then the whole of the book cannot be either.

Of course. Doesn't insist on chronology however. Typically the conjunction 'and' means 'also' or it's an emphatic like 'indeed' and context dictates the definition. I do not know of an instance where 'and' means 'next' or 'following this' denoting a timeline.  And you accuse others of reading into the text? 

No. That is a personal take to fit a personal interpretation. Scripture says no such thing, only Iamlamad says this.

And? Your words are authoritative why? Who made you an authority? Why should anyone take your words or thoughts as the final judgement on the matter?

Is it because you say you hear directly from Jesus? So what? We all do. What makes you a higher authority than all the other people who either hear Jesus speak to them or who claim Jesus speaks to them?

Honestly, this sort of thing is the weakest link in all your arguments and only proves you'd be a good cult leader.

Extant evidence to the contrary. "I discovered"... Arrogance. Conceit. Self promotion.

I mean, how many times can you point to yourself in just a few sentences? "I, I, I, I..." 

Amazing!

You think? Who cares?

What does Jesus say? That's what matters.

Is your valid reason to disagree your personal feelings that I'm wrong? I'll help you with that. I am wrong. Only what Jesus says is truth. Scripture saith...which is the word of our Lord Jesus Christ and the only reliable truth in existence. Scripture over the word of everyone else, period.

Yes, of course if you say Jesus returns at the 7th trump - you are reading into the text (and any other text) what is not there.

Ignoring some of the info does not make your take accurate.  I have not ignored; I have understood: Jesus at this time begins reigning over EARTH. This is not a difficult concept. Before the 7th trumpet Satan is the spiritual leader of earth - having usurped that position from Adam. What? Do  you imagine He cannot "reign" over earth from heaven?  He is reigning as he unleashes the vials of His wrath.

You have taken Your great power  Who has his power before He "took" it? I submit the church had His delegated power up to the time of the rapture, and then it was transferred to the 144,000, so they had his delegated power up to the 7th trumpet. They get raptured and then He takes His power back and begins to reign.

he time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  What? Did you not understand this is PROPHECY given by the 24 elders? Did you not notice that judging the dead (the heathen dead) won't come until after the 1000 year reign? my friend, this is PROPHECY - foretelling future events. It does not happen right here at the 7th trumpet. The Prophecy is GIVEN here. The Church will receive their reward at the start of the 1000 year reign: do you remember the parable of the talents?  There is no contradiction here. If you still think there is, explain why.

You said: "The Lord has arrived"  I said, Not here at the 7th trumpet. You think this is a contradiction. I stand by that: anyone with reading ability can tell us He comes in chapter 19.  I guess you must do a chapter warp and imagine that the 7th trumpet and His coming as seen in chapter 19 are at the same time.  If so you are in error.  This is basic: He begins His reign over earth FROM HEAVEN. He does not return until the 70th week is over and then after the marriage and supper. 

because some events were written down at some point in time does not have a bearing on when those events occurred, or will occur.   You are free to believe this, but you will be wrong in many areas. Why? Because God caused John to write in a very chronological manner. No one has a real reason to rearrange. If they do, they will be in error. Case in point? The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. Chapter 19 is after the week has ended. You can doubt this, but when we all arrive in heaven, you will find this is truth.

If Revelation was strictly chronological there would be some where around 17 total years if one added up all the mentions of 3.5 years   You are free to believe this, but it is simply not truth. How could God or anyone else write of 5 parallel events at the same time? It would be impossible. Do you understand that from chapter 13 on, John as 5 parallel paths to the end, plus his own narrative? No one is going to understand this with one reading. It takes diligent study. However, that being said, the start of these 5 countdowns is staggered: they don't all start exactly at the 7th trumpet. Case in point: the 42 months of trampling and the 1260 days of testifying will start just before the 7th trumpet. The 1260 days of fleeing, and then the 3.5 years of feeding will begin after the 7th trumpet, just as John wrote it. The 42 months of authority start last, and of course end last, when Jesus returns.  In other words, the start of these 5 parallel paths is written in perfect chronological order. Each one of these 5 events are a countdown as written: from the midpoint ( just before and just after) to the end of the week.  Will they all end at the 7th vial that ends the week? No, I think the end will be staggered also. John does not give us the exact ending of any of these countdowns except for the two witnesses. 

Strictly   How strict do you want to be? Would parentheses be outside of your strictness?  Let's see how strict:

Will the 42 months of trampling begin before the 42 months of authority? In other words, will the events of chapter 13 come AFTER the events of chapter 11? I say OF COURSE. But keep in mind, it is the START of each countdown that is chronological - not the countdown itself. John writes of the START of each countdown - with the two exceptions: He gives us more information that will take place during the last half of the week with the two witnesses and with the two Beasts. But these are written as parentheses. 

I will say this again: in general, any event from a given chapter will take place after the events of a previous chapter and before the events of a later chapter. Parentheses are exceptions.

since the major markers of time in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ are not strictly chronological,   That is your opinion and I know it is wrong. But if I am wrong, I am willing to be corrected: can you show us some examples?  For me, the major "time-line" in Revelation would be the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials. There is no way they can overlap or be rearranged in any way. That is the Chronological timeline of the book.  Their order cannot be changed.

"And" shows continuance of what came before. It shows that John is continuing. The thing is, can you prove that after the "and" in some chapter, those events should be rearranged back to a previous chapter? For example, the book of Daniel was not written with all these "ands." Most scholars believe that the different chapters of Daniel were written at different times and the book is certainly not chronological with the except of chapters 11 & 12.  Revelation is written as if John sat down to write and wrote the entire book in one sitting.  From chapter 4 on, most of what John wrote was from the vision God showed him. Again it seems as if he wrote it exactly the way it was given him in the vision.  Are you saying that God gave the vision to John OUT of order?

No. That is a personal take to fit a personal interpretation. Scripture says no such thing  How interesting! My order is John's order and his order was God's order in the vision. So scripture DOES say this. It is you who insisted John did not write things in order. Why would you think God had John number the seals, trumpets and vials? I insist John put the numbers in for chronology. Otherwise it was a waste of ink.  John did use "after"  11 times: to show chronology.  How wrote that all 7 seals are finished before the 7 angels are given the seven trumpets.  Yet you imaging it must be rearranged to be in order of time?   Unless you are someone else can prove by scripture that rearranging is necessary, I will stick with my axiom.

And? Your words are authoritative why? Who made you an authority? Why should anyone take your words or thoughts as the final judgement on the matter?    If you think I am in error, then prove it by scripture. If I am in error that should prove easy. I did not choose to study Revelation: God pushed me into it. Then He began speaking to me about it. NO ONE should take what I write as truth until they study it out and see if I am in agreement with scriptures or am in error.  I wrote down exactly the words Jesus spoke to me. If you don't believe those words came from Jesus, then you should be able to prove them in error by scripture. However, if what He said to me agrees with scripture, you should believe them. Many people imagine they hear from God. But did they hear His voice and His words so clearly the words are burned into their memory? There are many voices people can hear. If God has spoken to you about anything we are discussing, tell us.

We all do ...only proves you'd be a good cult leader. Now it seems you are disagreeing with yourself. Did you forget what Jesus said? "My sheep know my voice."  If anyone is NOT hearing from God, they should find out why.

"When I discovered..."  

Extant evidence to the contrary. "I discovered"... Arrogance. Conceit. Self promotion.

 God sent me to find the "exact midpoint clearly marked."  If God has sent YOU to find it, what would you have done? Ignored Him?  I have discovered that when someone knows truth and others don't - they seem to think it is arrogance. I imagine when Paul preached some maybe imagined he was arrogant. He got the very gospel that we will be judged by through revelation. You are wasting time here: if I am wrong, show it with scripture. This has nothing to do with "arrogance, conceit, or self promotion. I am only promoted the word of God as written in Revelation. Again, if I am in error, you should be able to prove I am in error.

What does Jesus say? That's what matters.  The Book of Revelation is just as much His words as we see in the gospels. Don't be offended if we disagree: STUDY. Pray in the Spirit (if you can). Ask God to help you understand His intent.

I am here to teach the truth of Revelation as much as in my power to do it. it is my commission. When I see someone write something I don't think agrees with the written Word, I think the readers should have  another point of view.  Much of these discussions in Revelation will not affect anyone's salvation. The timing of the rapture could.  If anyone disagrees with what I write, they are free to answer as you have answered. I think you got offended. I hope not, but If so, that is between you and God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...