Timing of the two witnesses, by working backwards

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Error: "peace and Safety" comes from Paul and is describing the time just before the rapture - not some time inside the 70th week.

Error: "ToD" found only once in the bible in reference to Antiochus Epiphanes.

Error: Isa. 14:19 does not mean resurrected, but dead body just thrown in a pit with many other dead.

Error: the horsemen: seals 1-4 are church age, not end time.

Error: there is no 1185 days in the mind of God or in the scripture: that is human imagination. John is clear: it is 1260 days.

Error: the two witnesses show up right where John is first introduced to them - just before the midpoint.

Error: Jesus does NOT return on day 2520: the events of chapters 17 and 18 plus the marriage and supper must take place after the week ends and before Christ returns.

Douggg, you and I are not going to agree until we arrive in heaven.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

That isn't totally true. In history there are examples where the threat of war has led to capitulation; WWII gives examples of this. 

A kingdom can be subdued though economic means or restricting resources and the leader gives in to feed his people. 

I think in your example of subduing 'three kings' it is probably military action, but it may not be as it's not the only way.

I think there is a strong hint in scripture that it is military action:

⁴ And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Why would they say "who is able to make war with Him" unless he had done something like Hitler and his Blitzkrieg.  Also note that he was pictured as a leopard, which was likened to Alexander the Great. This saying was probably said of Alexander.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

The rise of the beast begins the last week. The revealing of the beast occurs at the midpoint. 

The arrival of the two witnesses coincide with the rise of the beast and they are killed by the beast at the midpoint, when the beast is revealed and is given power to 'continue' 42 months.

I disagree: It was at the midpoint that John saw the Beast rise up. He rises up after he has been revealed as the Beast.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The two witnesses SHOW UP right where John wrote of them, just days before the midpoint (I think exactly 3.5 days before the midpoint). Their testimony is to be during the 42 months of the Beast or the last half of the week. All the other mentions of the 3.5 year period of time is for the last half of the week. The two witnesses are not different.

What you have missed: verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis: with no bearing on Chronology: John takes us on a side journey with the two witnesses only down the last half of the week. The great earthquake when they rise is the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial that ends the week.

The Beast will not be allowed to kill them until just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week.

Did you notice? At the 7th vial is where the Old Testament saints rise. The two witnesses - without any doubt, Enoch and Elijah - have not died yet. They are Old Covenant saints. They will be resurrected with all the rest of their brethren.  Notice that this is the greatest earthquake ever. It will be caused when God brings together the particles of the bodies of those before the flood. It is going to shake the earth violently. (See Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened.")

Jesus said time and again that He would raise them (Old Testament saints) "on the last day." It will be the last 24 hour day of the 70th week.

Edited September 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

They don't see what you are pushing. No one buys this stuff brother but you and a few more who are just not hearing the voice of God  in this IMHO. 

  This is funny: we both declare that we hear the voice of God- but we disagree much about end times. You imagine I am just not hearing the voice of God. One thing is CERTAIN: God will not tell one person one thing, and someone else an opposing view!

Edited September 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It really doesn't matter WHO it is, but we know Elijah is one of the 2W's because of what Jesus said and Malachi 4:5-6. We think the other is Moses because of the transfiguration. Remember, their job is to get Israel to REPENT BEFORE the DOTL, so what better two but the Spiritual leader of the Jews and the Law Giver of the Jews, Moses !! 

I don't see Christian hate for the Jews in modern Christianity, some, but we mostly understand God's plans now way better than people did a 100 years ago. For 100's of years a lot of churches forbade its members from reading the Gospel. Some were therefore indoctrinated, it took time, the computer helped, to come to the truths, that God called the Jews, they failed God, as we all do on our own, but the Church by trusting in Jesus' Blood learned to let God do His will through us. God's will is stated, He will use the Gentile Church to reach mankind, then He will call the Church home and call Israel unto Repentance. Way too many people have ideas OF THEM, not of God, it is a shame. 

Israel repents 75 days before the Middle of the week when the first seal is opened. The AoD happens at the 1290, not the 1260, that is 30 days before the 1290....the 1335 is when the Two-witnesses show up. Daniel 12 says exactly what I just showed you, if one studies it in depth. WHEN WILL THESE THINGS END Lord ? Verse 8.................Daniel asks thee same thing the Angel asked Jesus (Man in linen) and Jesus' first answer was that the Jewish people {Holy Peoples} power will be taken away 1260 days {Time, times and half} before these WONDERS END {Second Coming}. 

So likewise, the 1290 and 1335 are a set number of days from EVENTS until THESE WONDERS END {Second Coming} also. 

Now it makes sense, Jesus wouldn't give a warning telling the Jews to flee Judea when they are getting Conquered, he gives a 30 days HEADS UP !! Jesus is of course ALL KNOWING !! If I knew the future even I wouldn't give a ZERO MINUTE WARNING !! And I am just a dumb human being comparatively speaking. The False Prophet places the IMAGE in the Temple at the 1290.

Israel repents 75 days before the Middle of the week when the first seal is opened.   Error: The first seal is opened as soon as Jesus ascended.  

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

 

What time is it? God had just shown John a throne room with Jesus Christ missing, then a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals which ended in failure, then finally another search where Jesus was found worthy, and then verse 6 & 7 shown here where Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

Jesus NOT seen in the throne room was to show us it was while He was on earth.

The Holy Spirit there in the throne room shows us Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

No man found in the search shows us Jesus not yet risen from the dead.

Jesus found worthy shows us Jesus had just risen from the dead, prevailing over death.

What did Jesus do after He rose from the dead? He told Mary He had not yet ascended, which tells us as soon as Mary left He DID ascend. In verse 6 John got to see that moment in history when Jesus arrived in the throne room and sent the Holy Spirit down.

In which verse did you find that 75 days? Or did you ad lib those days?

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I think there is a strong hint in scripture that it is military action:

⁴ And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Why would they say "who is able to make war with Him" unless he had done something like Hitler and his Blitzkrieg.  Also note that he was pictured as a leopard, which was likened to Alexander the Great. This saying was probably said of Alexander.

Point being it's not the only way. It's what you believe to be the case which may or may not turn out to be accurate. 

Because the question is asked shows awe, fear and admiration of the beast in the eyes of the people; all based on the healing of a deadly head wound and the power and authority given to the beast by the dragon.

This alone no doubt conquers the minds and hearts of a great many people from slaves to kings, without firing a single bullet. 

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What you have missed: verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis: with no bearing on Chronology: John takes us on a side journey with the two witnesses only down the last half of the week. The great earthquake when they rise is the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial that ends the week.

If the passage has no bearing on chronology then why quote the earthquake event as proof of chronology for a non chronological parenthetical? 

Fact is we'll need more info than mere belief.

[iamlamad]

24 minutes ago, Diaste said:

If the passage has no bearing on chronology then why quote the earthquake event as proof of chronology for a non chronological parenthetical? 

Fact is we'll need more info than mere belief.

We also need more than a cursory read over. It takes many hours of diligent study, much praying in the spirit for His wisdom, and some common sense. Many can't pray in the spirit, won't put in the study time, and simply lack common sense. If we line up 100 believers  that actually study Revelation about chapter 11,  we would probably get 100  different answers.

My first question: do you understand "chronology?" 

Do you understand John's chronology? 

Do you know what I mean when I say a "side journey?" 

Do you imagine you must rearrange Revelation to fit a theory - or you do form your theory from Revelation as written? 

I have a very good reason for my belief on this parenthesis. I know that the 70th week will be 2520 days long. No longer; no shorter. I know that it will be divided into two halves with 1260 days before and 1260 days after the abomination Jesus spoke of. 

I know that the 70th week is "marked" (His word, not mine) by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th vial ends the week, and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. 

I know the two witnesses "show up" right where God introduced them to John: in 11:3.  They did not show up in 8:1 when the week began but God failed to show John. 

I know that the days of GT will not begin until after the warning about the mark in chapter 14. I know that the fleeing as shown in 12:6 must come one or two seconds after the abomination. If 12:6 is only a moment after the abomination, then I know that 1260 days of testifying cannot have taken place in  3 1/2 days! 

The ONLY way to make all these things fit is that God introduces JOhn to the two witnesses at the moment in His narrative that they will actually show up - just before the midpoint - 11:3. In fact, it is just 3.5 days before the midpoint. But they John takes us down the entire last 1260 days as a side journey with the two witnesses - as a parenthesis: 4 through 13.

For chronology:

11:1-2  Just days before the abomination (the man of sin entering the Holy of Holies) the man of sin must get himself to the city of Jerusalem where the temple will be. He will come with his gentile armies - who will then trample the city for 42 months. 

11:3 the two witnesses show up next, because the man of sin just entered Jerusalem. God knows exactly what he will do in 3 and 1/2 days: He will declare he is the God of the Jews. The two witnesses show up just 3.5 days before the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God - stopping the daily sacrifices just as Daniel has written. It is the abomination Jesus spoke of - and the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking that time the Beast is revealed.

11:14-15 the 7th trumpet sounds, marking the exact midpoint.

12:6: those in Judea begin fleeing.

If you fail to recognize the parenthesis, you have the abomination and then the fleeing sometime late in the week!  OR: you are forced to rearrange what John wrote, and imagine the two witnesses came at the beginning of the week - but God chose not to show John.  I cannot believe either one of these scenarios. 

Then if we examine chapter 13, we see John does the same thing: He takes the readers on a side journey down the last half of the week with the two Beasts. Did you notice that the verse mentioning the Mark and the enforcing of the mark is in chapter 13, but God's warning not to take the mark is in chapter 14.  Will you be forced to rearrange again? 

The earthquake is just a bonus proof. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Point being it's not the only way. It's what you believe to be the case which may or may not turn out to be accurate. 

Because the question is asked shows awe, fear and admiration of the beast in the eyes of the people; all based on the healing of a deadly head wound and the power and authority given to the beast by the dragon.

This alone no doubt conquers the minds and hearts of a great many people from slaves to kings, without firing a single bullet. 

You are free to doubt it is war that takes out three nations and kings; and I am free to believe it is war.

You are free to believe the man of sin turned Beast receives a deadly wound; but I am free to understand the 7 heads are kingdoms with kings over them, and one of the kingdoms received a deadly wound.  Many think the first 5 (those fallen by John's time) were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. I think the deadly would was the wound on Babylon, or Iraq, when they were whipped and the king: Saddam, was put to death. I fully expect Iraq one day will return to the Muslim Brotherhood.

A moment after He will be revealed as the Beast - when He enters the temple and declares He is God, I think he will be an unknown: or at the most known but not not much will be known. But the moment He turns beast, He goes after the woman and then after the saints. Of course it will be Satan doing this using the Beast.   How will any people know about the authority given to Him at that point in time? I think they won't. 

[JoeCanada]

Aspect of Ministry of Two Witnesses	Ministry During the First Half of 70th Week	Ministry from 3rd Year till 6th Year of 70th Week	Ministry During the Last Half of 70th Week
Do They Witness to the Jews?	Yes	Yes	No
Do They Witness to the Gentiles?	No	Yes	Yes
Is Their Resurrection Timed With Primary Resurrection? (Rev. 11:11-12)	No	Yes	No
Is Their Ministry and the drought associated with it timed with the Famine of the third year of the 70th Week? (Rev. 11:6)	Yes	Yes	No
Does their ministry coincide with the plagues of the second half of the 70th Week? (Rev. 11: 6)	No	Maybe?	Yes
Will the Nations be in a celebratory mood upon the death of the Witnesses? (Rev. 11:10)	Maybe?	Yes	No
Will the Nations be able to say “Peace and Safety” upon the death of the Witnesses? (1 Thess. 5:1-3)	No	Yes	No
Is an Earthquake foretold as part of the other events surrounding their resurrection? (Rev. 11:13)	No	Yes	No

 

 By looking at this table, its obvious that a ministry that overlaps both halves of the 70th Week (from the third year to the end of the sixth year) is the most likely (it  matches the most clues). This isn’t definitive proof however.

 

Will They Witness to the Jews?

The Two Witnesses minister in Jerusalem. In order to witness to the Jews, the Jews will have to be in Jerusalem during the time the Witnesses are ministering. A ministry during the first half of Daniel’s 70th Week is required because the Jews are mostly killed or taken into captivity during the second half of the “Week.” Both of the first two options have a portion of the ministry during the first half of the “Week”.

Will They Witness to the Gentiles?

Using the exact same logic, it will be necessary for a portion of their ministry to be during the second half of the 70th Week in order for them to minister to the Gentiles who trample Jerusalem for this 42 month period. This makes a ministry solely during the first half of the 70th Week less likely.

The ministry of the Two Witnesses includes the calling down of plagues (some of which mirror the plagues of Egypt). Doesn’t it make more sense that these plagues will be upon the Gentiles (just as they were in Egypt)? If so then the Two Witnesses must be witnessing during the second half of Daniel’s 70th Week since that is the only time the Gentiles are present in Jerusalem.

Does the Drought of the Two Witnesses correspond with the Famine of the Third Year?

Scripture tells us no rain falls during the ministry of the Witnesses. We know from the “Pattern of Seven Events” that it is most likely that a famine strikes in the third year.  Even if this is controversial, nearly all commentators believe the famine is part of the “Beginning of the Birth Pangs” period and happens in the first half of the “Week.” This makes it much more likely for the ministry of the Witnesses to take place during some portion of the first half of the 70th Week.

Plagues

We know the witnesses cause other plagues as well. All of these would most likely take place AFTER the invasion of Israel at the midpoint when it is being trampled by Gentiles. This makes a solely first half of the 70th Week ministry very unlikely.

Will the Nations be in a Celebratory Mood upon the Death of the Witnesses?

We know the Nations celebrate and give each other gifts upon the death of the Witnesses. It is unlikely that the gentile nations will celebrate if the Witnesses die at the midpoint because the gentiles won’t have experienced the ministry of the witnesses. Why celebrate their deaths?

It is also unlikely the nations will celebrate at the end of the 1260 days. At this point Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are gathering the nations to fight against Christ when he returns. The nations have also just experienced/are experiencing the pouring out of the Bowls of Wrath. They have bigger problems than the death of the witnesses, let alone having time to give gifts.

The only timing that makes sense from a celebratory point of view is at the end of the sixth year of the “Week” as we will see below.

Will the Nations say “Peace and Safety” after the Death of the Witnesses?

If the Witnesses have a ministry during the last half of the 70th Week, the Bowls will be in the process of being poured out and the nations will be gathering to fight against Jesus at his return. This is not a time when anyone would say “peace and safety” as we discuss in the prior post mentioned above.

If the Witnesses have a ministry during the first half of the 70th Week, the Antichrist wars against Egypt and the western nations will be ongoing. Additionally the Great Tribulation will have just begun. No one would say peace and safety at that point.

Only a ministry that ends prior to the Resurrection/Rapture at the end of the sixth year could result in the Nations saying “peace and safety” after the death of the Witnesses.

Is an Earthquake Prophesied to Occur in Conjunction with Other Events Surrounding the Resurrection of the Witnesses?

We know from Rev. 11:13 that an earthquake occurs upon the Resurrection of the Witnesses. Might this earthquake be part of the any of the other earthquakes that are prophesied to occur during the 70th Week? It might be. If earthquakes are prophesied at the same time as Resurrection of the Witnesses (such as at the seventh seal or the seventh bowl) this would support that timing for the the ministry of the Two Witnesses.

An earthquake is prophesied at the opening of the seventh seal (Rev. 8:5). This is consistent with a Ministry ending at the end of the sixth year. An earthquake is prophesied at the 7th Bowl as well, but this occurs at the battle of Armageddon at day 1260. If the witnesses are resurrected 3 1/2 days after this (consistent with a ministry of the last half of the 70th Week) then the earthquake will already have taken place.

Only a ministry from the third year until the end of the sixth year is supported by the occurrence of other earthquakes prophesied to coincide with other events.

Looking at all the clues in Rev. 11, it appears it is most likely that the Two Witnesses minster from about the middle of the third year of Daniel’s 70th Week until 3 1/2 days before the Resurrection at the end of the sixth year. 

Snippets from "Revelation Deciphered"