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Timing of the two witnesses, by working backwards


douggg

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

We also need more than a cursory read over. It takes many hours of diligent study, much praying in the spirit for His wisdom, and some common sense. Many can't pray in the spirit, won't put in the study time, and simply lack common sense. If we line up 100 believers  that actually study Revelation about chapter 11,  we would probably get 100  different answers.

My first question: do you understand "chronology?" 

Do you understand John's chronology? 

Do you know what I mean when I say a "side journey?" 

Do you imagine you must rearrange Revelation to fit a theory - or you do form your theory from Revelation as written? 

I have a very good reason for my belief on this parenthesis. I know that the 70th week will be 2520 days long. No longer; no shorter. I know that it will be divided into two halves with 1260 days before and 1260 days after the abomination Jesus spoke of. 

I know that the 70th week is "marked" (His word, not mine) by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th vial ends the week, and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. 

I know the two witnesses "show up" right where God introduced them to John: in 11:3.  They did not show up in 8:1 when the week began but God failed to show John. 

I know that the days of GT will not begin until after the warning about the mark in chapter 14. I know that the fleeing as shown in 12:6 must come one or two seconds after the abomination. If 12:6 is only a moment after the abomination, then I know that 1260 days of testifying cannot have taken place in  3 1/2 days! 

The ONLY way to make all these things fit is that God introduces JOhn to the two witnesses at the moment in His narrative that they will actually show up - just before the midpoint - 11:3. In fact, it is just 3.5 days before the midpoint. But they John takes us down the entire last 1260 days as a side journey with the two witnesses - as a parenthesis: 4 through 13.

For chronology:

11:1-2  Just days before the abomination (the man of sin entering the Holy of Holies) the man of sin must get himself to the city of Jerusalem where the temple will be. He will come with his gentile armies - who will then trample the city for 42 months. 

11:3 the two witnesses show up next, because the man of sin just entered Jerusalem. God knows exactly what he will do in 3 and 1/2 days: He will declare he is the God of the Jews. The two witnesses show up just 3.5 days before the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God - stopping the daily sacrifices just as Daniel has written. It is the abomination Jesus spoke of - and the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking that time the Beast is revealed.

11:14-15 the 7th trumpet sounds, marking the exact midpoint.

12:6: those in Judea begin fleeing.

If you fail to recognize the parenthesis, you have the abomination and then the fleeing sometime late in the week!  OR: you are forced to rearrange what John wrote, and imagine the two witnesses came at the beginning of the week - but God chose not to show John.  I cannot believe either one of these scenarios. 

Then if we examine chapter 13, we see John does the same thing: He takes the readers on a side journey down the last half of the week with the two Beasts. Did you notice that the verse mentioning the Mark and the enforcing of the mark is in chapter 13, but God's warning not to take the mark is in chapter 14.  Will you be forced to rearrange again? 

The earthquake is just a bonus proof. 

In the New Testament,  those who are described as Ekklesia, born again ones, set apart by Yahuweh for Himself,

agree on everything Yahuweh Reveals to them,  and walk in union with the Son and with the Father as written. 

They did not suffer 100 different stories,  and would not permit any private interpretation of Scripture nor of prophecy ,

but instead trusted the Father,  and relied on Him,  and His Faithfulness to reveal everything concerning salvation as Jesus said He is well pleased so to do. (to/for little children) ....

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6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Error: "peace and Safety" comes from Paul and is describing the time just before the rapture - not some time inside the 70th week.

 

Regarding the rapture, 1Thessalonians5 is saying that the rapture begins before  the Day of the Lord begins.   1Thessalonais5 - saying peace and safety - is not referring to Christians.   But them who will be call off-guard.

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Error: "ToD" found only once in the bible in reference to Antiochus Epiphanes.

The ToD is time of the end, in the text of Daniel 8.   Not referring to Antiochus.

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Error: Isa. 14:19 does not mean resurrected, but dead body just thrown in a pit with many other dead.

It is his soul that is cast out of hell.    He is cast out of the grave, it is figuratively speaking about his soul.    He will not be buried then exhumed and thrown in a pit.

 

 

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8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Error: the horsemen: seals 1-4 are church age, not end time.

The church age is the first three chapters of Revelation.

The four horsemen are end times, specifically the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Error: there is no 1185 days in the mind of God or in the scripture: that is human imagination. John is clear: it is 1260 days.

There is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 left.    Day 1185 is one day on that 7 year timeline.    And is in the middle part of the week. 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Error: the two witnesses show up right where John is first introduced to them - just before the midpoint.

irrational, and we have gone over this issue before.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Error: Jesus does NOT return on day 2520: the events of chapters 17 and 18 plus the marriage and supper must take place after the week ends and before Christ returns.

That makes no sense.   You should do a chart similar to mine, and put all of your ideas in a form that connects everything.

 

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5 hours ago, simplejeff said:

In the New Testament,  those who are described as Ekklesia, born again ones, set apart by Yahuweh for Himself,

agree on everything Yahuweh Reveals to them,  and walk in union with the Son and with the Father as written. 

They did not suffer 100 different stories,  and would not permit any private interpretation of Scripture nor of prophecy ,

but instead trusted the Father,  and relied on Him,  and His Faithfulness to reveal everything concerning salvation as Jesus said He is well pleased so to do. (to/for little children) ....

Yet in the first Century, Paul had to fight false doctrine continually. It seems, as soon as there was "doctrine," false doctrine came.

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48 minutes ago, douggg said:

The church age is the first three chapters of Revelation.

The four horsemen are end times, specifically the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

There is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 left.    Day 1185 is one day on that 7 year timeline.    And is in the middle part of the week. 

irrational, and we have gone over this issue before.

That makes no sense.   You should do a chart similar to mine, and put all of your ideas in a form that connects everything.

 

I did not write it, John did: and it was God that showed these things to John in the vision. God had the two witnesses show up right after the Gentile army moved into Jerusalem to trample the city for 42 months.  It may seem irrational to you, but that is because of your preconceptions. I accept it as fact and truth. It is what John wrote.

Again, I did not write the book! Go back and look: the week ends at the 7th vial. It ends with the destruction of "Babylon."

God and John both put the marriage and supper after the end of the week and before Jesus returns. It makes perfect sense: the marriage must await the resurrection of the Old Testament saints; they are resurrected and caught up at the 7th vial that ends the week - on the last 24 hour day of the week and of the age. Whether or not they will be "guests" at the wedding, I will leave to others. How long will this marriage and supper take? My guess is, 30 days.

You and I read these scriptures differently and approach them with different expectations: we are simply going to disagree.

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1 hour ago, douggg said:

Regarding the rapture, 1Thessalonians5 is saying that the rapture begins before  the Day of the Lord begins.   1Thessalonais5 - saying peace and safety - is not referring to Christians.   But them who will be call off-guard.

The ToD is time of the end, in the text of Daniel 8.   Not referring to Antiochus.

It is his soul that is cast out of hell.    He is cast out of the grave, it is figuratively speaking about his soul.    He will not be buried then exhumed and thrown in a pit.

Yes, agreed: those who will be left behind. But it is the TIMING: the rapture event will begin with the dead in Christ suddenly rising up out of their graves. But within moments the entire event will be over: the bride will be caught up and those left behind will be caught in Paul's "sudden destruction."  Therefore, at the timing of this whole rapture event, people will be saying "peace and safety." Now, will they still be saying that months into the 70th week? John does not tell us. My point was, stick close to scripture.

You can imagine all you want about Daniel 8. From verse 1 to the end of the chapter it is about Greece and Persia. But go ahead and pull your pet verses out of their chapter context! You have been successful so far. However, one day you will find out it is error. Since much of your end time doctrine comes from this error, you will find much of what you teach is wrong.

As for soul vs body, I challenge you to read all the commentators on that verse. You are expecting us to believe that for the first time since Jesus, someone will escape hell. I doubt that very much. Jesus did it because He was GOD and had power over death. Again we disagree.

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6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:
Aspect of Ministry of Two Witnesses Ministry During the First Half of 70th Week Ministry from 3rd Year till 6th Year of 70th Week Ministry During the Last Half of 70th Week
Do They Witness to the Jews? Yes Yes No
Do They Witness to the Gentiles? No Yes Yes
Is Their Resurrection Timed With Primary Resurrection? (Rev. 11:11-12) No Yes No
Is Their Ministry and the drought associated with it timed with the Famine of the third year of the 70th Week? (Rev. 11:6) Yes Yes No
Does their ministry coincide with the plagues of the second half of the 70th Week? (Rev. 11: 6) No Maybe? Yes
Will the Nations be in a celebratory mood upon the death of the Witnesses? (Rev. 11:10) Maybe? Yes No
Will the Nations be able to say “Peace and Safety” upon the death of the Witnesses? (1 Thess. 5:1-3) No Yes No
Is an Earthquake foretold as part of the other events surrounding their resurrection? (Rev. 11:13) No Yes No

 

 By looking at this table, its obvious that a ministry that overlaps both halves of the 70th Week (from the third year to the end of the sixth year) is the most likely (it  matches the most clues). This isn’t definitive proof however.

 

Will They Witness to the Jews?

The Two Witnesses minister in Jerusalem. In order to witness to the Jews, the Jews will have to be in Jerusalem during the time the Witnesses are ministering. A ministry during the first half of Daniel’s 70th Week is required because the Jews are mostly killed or taken into captivity during the second half of the “Week.” Both of the first two options have a portion of the ministry during the first half of the “Week”.

Will They Witness to the Gentiles?

Using the exact same logic, it will be necessary for a portion of their ministry to be during the second half of the 70th Week in order for them to minister to the Gentiles who trample Jerusalem for this 42 month period. This makes a ministry solely during the first half of the 70th Week less likely.

The ministry of the Two Witnesses includes the calling down of plagues (some of which mirror the plagues of Egypt). Doesn’t it make more sense that these plagues will be upon the Gentiles (just as they were in Egypt)? If so then the Two Witnesses must be witnessing during the second half of Daniel’s 70th Week since that is the only time the Gentiles are present in Jerusalem.

Does the Drought of the Two Witnesses correspond with the Famine of the Third Year?

Scripture tells us no rain falls during the ministry of the Witnesses. We know from the “Pattern of Seven Events” that it is most likely that a famine strikes in the third year.  Even if this is controversial, nearly all commentators believe the famine is part of the “Beginning of the Birth Pangs” period and happens in the first half of the “Week.” This makes it much more likely for the ministry of the Witnesses to take place during some portion of the first half of the 70th Week.

Plagues

We know the witnesses cause other plagues as well. All of these would most likely take place AFTER the invasion of Israel at the midpoint when it is being trampled by Gentiles. This makes a solely first half of the 70th Week ministry very unlikely.

Will the Nations be in a Celebratory Mood upon the Death of the Witnesses?

We know the Nations celebrate and give each other gifts upon the death of the Witnesses. It is unlikely that the gentile nations will celebrate if the Witnesses die at the midpoint because the gentiles won’t have experienced the ministry of the witnesses. Why celebrate their deaths?

It is also unlikely the nations will celebrate at the end of the 1260 days. At this point Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are gathering the nations to fight against Christ when he returns. The nations have also just experienced/are experiencing the pouring out of the Bowls of Wrath. They have bigger problems than the death of the witnesses, let alone having time to give gifts.

The only timing that makes sense from a celebratory point of view is at the end of the sixth year of the “Week” as we will see below.

Will the Nations say “Peace and Safety” after the Death of the Witnesses?

If the Witnesses have a ministry during the last half of the 70th Week, the Bowls will be in the process of being poured out and the nations will be gathering to fight against Jesus at his return. This is not a time when anyone would say “peace and safety” as we discuss in the prior post mentioned above.

If the Witnesses have a ministry during the first half of the 70th Week, the Antichrist wars against Egypt and the western nations will be ongoing. Additionally the Great Tribulation will have just begun. No one would say peace and safety at that point.

Only a ministry that ends prior to the Resurrection/Rapture at the end of the sixth year could result in the Nations saying “peace and safety” after the death of the Witnesses.

Is an Earthquake Prophesied to Occur in Conjunction with Other Events Surrounding the Resurrection of the Witnesses?

We know from Rev. 11:13 that an earthquake occurs upon the Resurrection of the Witnesses. Might this earthquake be part of the any of the other earthquakes that are prophesied to occur during the 70th Week? It might be. If earthquakes are prophesied at the same time as Resurrection of the Witnesses (such as at the seventh seal or the seventh bowl) this would support that timing for the the ministry of the Two Witnesses.

An earthquake is prophesied at the opening of the seventh seal (Rev. 8:5). This is consistent with a Ministry ending at the end of the sixth year. An earthquake is prophesied at the 7th Bowl as well, but this occurs at the battle of Armageddon at day 1260. If the witnesses are resurrected 3 1/2 days after this (consistent with a ministry of the last half of the 70th Week) then the earthquake will already have taken place.

Only a ministry from the third year until the end of the sixth year is supported by the occurrence of other earthquakes prophesied to coincide with other events.

Looking at all the clues in Rev. 11, it appears it is most likely that the Two Witnesses minster from about the middle of the third year of Daniel’s 70th Week until 3 1/2 days before the Resurrection at the end of the sixth year. 

Snippets from "Revelation Deciphered"

This was a GREAT example of using human reasoning. I would much rather just follow the scripture: WHERE (when) is John in his narrative in 11:1?  I know he is just days before the midpoint of the week. And that is where God chose for the two witnesses to show up. Next, all 4 of the other mentions of the 3.5 year period of time is for the last half  of the week. Therefore it makes good sense that they also would fit the last half. Next, God will have 144,000 witnesses for the first half of the week, but NONE for the last half - unless the two witnesses are there. It just makes good sense they are there for God's witnesses for the last half of the week.

Consider when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed: God had witnesses.  There is going to be major destruction to earth during the vials and associated plagues. God will want witnesses.

Next, these two witnesses will be OLD testament saints. Their resurrection will be on "the last day." Jesus said this over and over. Their resurrection will come at the 7th vial that ends the week. It just makes sense that God would have the two witnesses  resurrected with the rest of the Old Testament saints.

Finally, since the Beast is going to have his 42 months at the last half of the week, that is when God will want His witnesses there.

Why not just leave Revelation as written and trust John and the Holy Spirit that when John saw them, that is when they show up.

If we study to show ourselves approved, we see that the Man of sin will arrive in Jerusalem just days (probably 3.5 days) before he will enter the temple. we see his arrival in 11:1-2. He will come with Gentile armies.  God knows exactly what he is going to do in 3 more days: enter the temple - so sends His two witnesses: they arrive just 3.5 days before the midpoint. They testify for 1260 days - which takes them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week. They lay dead for those 3.5 days and are resurrected at the same time all the other saints are risen: at the 7th vail that ends the week. Not the worst ever earthquake. God is resurrection many from before the flood!

So Joe is partially correct: 3.5 days of their testimony will be in the first half of the week.

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6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 By looking at this table, its obvious that a ministry that overlaps both halves of the 70th Week (from the third year to the end of the sixth year) is the most likely (it  matches the most clues). This isn’t definitive proof however.

 

The Two-witnesses start witnessing 75 days before the Midpoint to 75 days before the Beast dies. Thus the Beasts 75 days is parallel except for the 75 day "offshoot". Thus they start during what would be the Fourth Year, but before the Midway point.

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Will They Witness to the Jews?

The Two Witnesses minister in Jerusalem. In order to witness to the Jews, the Jews will have to be in Jerusalem during the time the Witnesses are ministering. A ministry during the first half of Daniel’s 70th Week is required because the Jews are mostly killed or taken into captivity during the second half of the “Week.” Both of the first two options have a portion of the ministry during the first half of the “Week”.

The Jews, though the whole world will see them on worldwide tv. The Church has been Raptured, the Jews are now in the final week of the 70th week, thus their repentance is at hand, they must repent before the 70th week ends according to the Daniel 9 prophecy.  Revelation 11 explains who they come to, if one can read the coded language, its like a "read between the lines" verse in a modern rock song, lets say "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" or LSD.

Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I didn't use to see this.....but then once I saw it, it was so obvious. Once I understood Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Citation chapter about the 1260 days of the Two-witnesses ministry and nothing more, I understood the first three verses was giving us a clue who the Two-witnesses came to testify unto.

Verse 1 talks about Measuring something. Measure the Temple, the altar, AND them {Jews} that worship therein. {God is telling John the Two-witnesses will TARGET the Jews with their witness.......specifically. TAKE MEASURE !! 

Verse 2, God tells John not to MEASURE the outer court for it is given to the Gentiles { God will not send the Two-witnesses unto the Gentiles, the Church is in Heaven, the REMNANT Church of Rev. 12:17 have already repented, they were called long ago by the Holy Spirit and tarried, and God isn't going to try and reach the Wicked Tares per se, their hearts hate God like Pharaoh did, with hardened hearts.}

I think this answers the "Will they testify to the Gentiles" question already so I can skip that portion.

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Does the Drought of the Two Witnesses correspond with the Famine of the Third Year?

Scripture tells us no rain falls during the ministry of the Witnesses. We know from the “Pattern of Seven Events” that it is most likely that a famine strikes in the third year.  Even if this is controversial, nearly all commentators believe the famine is part of the “Beginning of the Birth Pangs” period and happens in the first half of the “Week.” This makes it much more likely for the ministry of the Witnesses to take place during some portion of the first half of the 70th Week.

I only see that the can produce Plagues and have the ability to shut off rain as long as they like. What I think people miss in general here is, the Two-witnesses PRAY DOWN all the Plagues of God, this is why the World HATES and FEARS them and thus Rejoices at their death. They die at the end of the 2nd Woe, but have already sent up they prayer for the 3rd and Last Woe {All 7 Vials} before they die. Norice in Chapter 8, prayers from the Saints come up unto God's nostrils, then God hurls down fire because of this prayer. So they PRAY DOWN Plagues for their entire ministry basically. But the first 75 days is spent getting Israel to repent.

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Plagues

We know the witnesses cause other plagues as well. All of these would most likely take place AFTER the invasion of Israel at the midpoint when it is being trampled by Gentiles. This makes a solely first half of the 70th Week ministry very unlikely.

Very true.

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Will the Nations be in a Celebratory Mood upon the Death of the Witnesses?

We know the Nations celebrate and give each other gifts upon the death of the Witnesses. It is unlikely that the gentile nations will celebrate if the Witnesses die at the midpoint because the gentiles won’t have experienced the ministry of the witnesses. Why celebrate their deaths?

It is also unlikely the nations will celebrate at the end of the 1260 days. At this point Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are gathering the nations to fight against Christ when he returns. The nations have also just experienced/are experiencing the pouring out of the Bowls of Wrath. They have bigger problems than the death of the witnesses, let alone having time to give gifts.

The only timing that makes sense from a celebratory point of view is at the end of the sixth year of the “Week” as we will see below.

You are on the right track. All this timing is shown in the 1335 which comes first, the 1290, which happens 30 days before the 1260. S0 75 days is the staggered portion of days.

...................................................................................................Day 1185 the 2W show up...........day 1290 the AoD happens, the False Prophets sets up an Image of the E.U. President {Beast} then on day..........1260 the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Mediterranean Sea REgion to become THE BEAST. 

The actual days going forward will be the 1186, the 1291 and the 1261. God is counting BACKWARDS to the END/Second Coming in his Daniel 12 revelation via Gabriel as per to HOW LONG TILL THESE WONDERS END !! {Second Coming}

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Is an Earthquake Prophesied to Occur in Conjunction with Other Events Surrounding the Resurrection of the Witnesses?

 

There will be at least THREE EARTHQUAKES. 

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I did not write it, John did: and it was God that showed these things to John in the vision. God had the two witnesses show up right after the Gentile army moved into Jerusalem to trample the city for 42 months.  It may seem irrational to you, but that is because of your preconceptions. I accept it as fact and truth. It is what John wrote.

You are not reading what is written.    John wrote what he was told about the two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days.    Same for the 42 months of the Gentiles in verse 2.    John did not see it himself.    John it is assumed that he measured the temple.    But the 42 months and the 1260 days John was told.   The angel was speaking on behalf of God.

John was told about two things.   It doesn't say one follows the other.

 

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why are you making that comment, anyway?    Who here is saying that Revelation is not fact and true?    Everyone here believes Revelation is fact and true.    What you are insinuating that others do not, if they disagree with you.  

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What translation are you using?    Does it say in the text of your translation that John himself witnesses the two witnesses testifying 1260 days or in the text does it say the angel told him?

 

 

 

Edited by douggg
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15 hours ago, douggg said:

You are not reading what is written.    John wrote what he was told about the two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days.    Same for the 42 months of the Gentiles in verse 2.    John did not see it himself.    John it is assumed that he measured the temple.    But the 42 months and the 1260 days John was told.   The angel was speaking on behalf of God.

John was told about two things.   It doesn't say one follows the other.

 

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why are you making that comment, anyway?    Who here is saying that Revelation is not fact and true?    Everyone here believes Revelation is fact and true.    What you are insinuating that others do not, if they disagree with you.  

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What translation are you using?    Does it say in the text of your translation that John himself witnesses the two witnesses testifying 1260 days or in the text does it say the angel told him?

You are correct: The angel said it. We really don't know if John saw them at this point or not. It really makes no difference in our differences if John saw them or was told about them. What makes all the difference is WHERE in the vision the angel spoke of the two witnesses and then where in John's narrative he wrote of the two witnesses. Without a doubt, John wrote this in the very order the angel spoke it.

Note carefully it is right after the angel said that the city would be trampled for 42 months. It is without any doubt that it would be the NEXT 42 months, not the former 42 as in the 42 months ends in this verse. This then is the first mention of an event starting at the midpoint and going to the end of the week.

You seem to think that God introduced John to the two witnesses at the end of their ministry.  I think God introduced John to them at this very first mention of them - the very time they show up on earth, having come from heaven: just days before the midpoint.  I think the intent of the Author is that their testimony parallels the other 4 events for the last half of the week

If you notice, the story of the two witnesses is written so that it could fit between almost any two consecutive verses in the book.  But here it is  - placed by God and by John - right after the first mention of the last 3.5 year period of time. And just before the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is shortly before the next mention of the lasts 3.5 year period of time.

I will tell you again the very words Jesus spoke to me when He sent me to find the exact midpoint, clearly marked:  "Every time I mentioned and event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

This tells me first off that EVERY mention of the 3 1/2 years is for an event that will start at the midpoint and go to the end. Next, it tells me that the exact midpoint was clearly marked by God so we could find it, and that it must be somewhere in chapters 11 through 13.  So according to Jesus, both mentions of the 42 months,  both mentions of the 1260 days, and the one mention of the time, times and half of time - ALL these are events that start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

Now, you have a choice: you and study and see if it is possible that Jesus, the Head of the church, could have said these words. If you find it is possible, you may have to change your thinking.  If you believe it is impossible Jesus said these words - and you are wrong, it will end up costing you.  If you believe it is impossible Jesus said these words - and He really did not - you are in the clear.

Well, you and I disagree on almost every other point, so it is not surprising we disagree here.

It does not matter what translation we use: they are all very close.

Edited by iamlamad
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