The TRIBULATION

[Dennis1209]

I've been perplexed with the exact meaning of several Bible verses and parables; and how they fit together and what does it mean to me personally, and collectively as a church and the Christian body? Namely, the parable of the Ten Virgins of Matthew 25: and the following verses. I believe my understanding has changed. I'm not claiming this view is the correct one, but I think it's worth a civil discussion to compare our views.

Luke 21:36 (KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Escape all these things, what things? I don't believe Jesus is talking about the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., I believe this is yet future. I believe this talks about the 'tribulation' and escaping it in the Harpazo. 

Matthew 24:38 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 

Whom do you suppose Jesus is talking to in the above verses? Is it the heathen, Jew's or believers and the church? As in the days of Noah, everything will be normal, there's prosperity and few worries, life goes on. The flood took them all by surprise and they were not expecting it even though Noah was preaching it for a hundred years. I now believe Jesus is talking to and warning the born again and the church to not be caught off guard, walk in His ways of righteousness and not living a carnal life when He unexpectedly comes for His church, the body of Christ. 

There doesn't seem to be any divisions between those taken; such as sheep and goats, the lost or the saved. It doesn't appear to me this is a Salvation issue. It appears to me, that those whom are ready and watching and patiently waiting, not living carnal lives but walking in righteousness and following the Lord are the ones Raptured. That these cited that were left behind, had previously accepted the Lord as their personal Savior, but reverted back to a carnal life; will have to enter the "Tribulation", even though their souls are saved. They will most likely have to become martyrs for the faith?    

 

 

[Mal'ak]

The Flood is an example to us, to explain the great tribulation.  There will be no rapture is what Jesus is saying, and when the anti-Christ comes we need to watch for it so we can no be deceived.

 

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

Jesus never gave a history lesson in all his time on Earth, he did not come to be a History teacher or a prophet of flesh events, he came to bring the Word of God and to prepare us for the great tribulation.  Christians point to "its a history lesson and Jesus was bored preaching about God, so he did some fun Q&A about flesh events", that is just a cop out because Christians do not want to call Jesus a liar but at the same time rather believe their church beliefs then the Word of God.

 

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

During the end times, there will be false prophets and will deceive many to turn away from God and even the non-believers to start to worship satan.  But it clearly says "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved".  So there will be Christians on Earth at this time that need to endure this, the non-believers are not going to endure false teachings and be saved obviously.

 

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

After the kingdom of satan, babylon, is setup on earth and the false prophet has been tricking people then according to the prophecy of Daneil that is when satan will come down himself.  While satan is here on Earth physically, we are told to "flee into the mountains".  Which means we are not to fight or attack satan, but to lay low and endure the lies until Jesus comes.  But if there is any doubt, Jesus himself says in verse 22 "but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened".  So in the original plan of God it was going to be a longer time period, but not even the Christians could endure satan face to face that long, so the time satan is on Earth will be shortened so we can hold out and not worship him as God.

 

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

We are told when the Christians will be gathered, "Immediately after the tribulation....they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds.....they shall gather together his elect".  Which works with the thief, we need to learn about the end times and watch for it so we don't worship satan when he comes thinking he is Jesus.  The ten virgins is the same, staying pure and "virgins" spiritually by not receiving the mark of the beast before Jesus comes and opens the door to them up at the Temple that will be in the clouds during the 1,000 year reign.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[BeauJangles]

58 minutes ago, Mal'ak said:

There will be no rapture is what Jesus is saying

He said that, did he? 

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I've been perplexed with the exact meaning of several Bible verses and parables; and how they fit together and what does it mean to me personally, and collectively as a church and the Christian body? Namely, the parable of the Ten Virgins of Matthew 25: and the following verses. I believe my understanding has changed. I'm not claiming this view is the correct one, but I think it's worth a civil discussion to compare our views.

Luke 21:36 (KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Escape all these things, what things? I don't believe Jesus is talking about the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., I believe this is yet future. I believe this talks about the 'tribulation' and escaping it in the Harpazo. 

Matthew 24:38 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 

Whom do you suppose Jesus is talking to in the above verses? Is it the heathen, Jew's or believers and the church? As in the days of Noah, everything will be normal, there's prosperity and few worries, life goes on. The flood took them all by surprise and they were not expecting it even though Noah was preaching it for a hundred years. I now believe Jesus is talking to and warning the born again and the church to not be caught off guard, walk in His ways of righteousness and not living a carnal life when He unexpectedly comes for His church, the body of Christ. 

There doesn't seem to be any divisions between those taken; such as sheep and goats, the lost or the saved. It doesn't appear to me this is a Salvation issue. It appears to me, that those whom are ready and watching and patiently waiting, not living carnal lives but walking in righteousness and following the Lord are the ones Raptured. That these cited that were left behind, had previously accepted the Lord as their personal Savior, but reverted back to a carnal life; will have to enter the "Tribulation", even though their souls are saved. They will most likely have to become martyrs for the faith?    

 

 

All those who are born again Christians and have a genuine faith in Jesus Christ will go in the rapture of the Church. All those who are not born again believers will stay on earth during the 7 year tribulation. They will have a chance to come to Christ during those 7 years. Once a person takes the MOB they have then dedicated themselves to Satan. They will go to be judged at the White Throne Judgment. There will be very few Christians alive at the end. I don't know how they will stay alive. Go underground?

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Mal'ak said:

The Flood is an example to us, to explain the great tribulation.  There will be no rapture is what Jesus is saying, and when the anti-Christ comes we need to watch for it so we can no be deceived.

 

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

Jesus never gave a history lesson in all his time on Earth, he did not come to be a History teacher or a prophet of flesh events, he came to bring the Word of God and to prepare us for the great tribulation.  Christians point to "its a history lesson and Jesus was bored preaching about God, so he did some fun Q&A about flesh events", that is just a cop out because Christians do not want to call Jesus a liar but at the same time rather believe their church beliefs then the Word of God.

 

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

During the end times, there will be false prophets and will deceive many to turn away from God and even the non-believers to start to worship satan.  But it clearly says "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved".  So there will be Christians on Earth at this time that need to endure this, the non-believers are not going to endure false teachings and be saved obviously.

 

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

After the kingdom of satan, babylon, is setup on earth and the false prophet has been tricking people then according to the prophecy of Daneil that is when satan will come down himself.  While satan is here on Earth physically, we are told to "flee into the mountains".  Which means we are not to fight or attack satan, but to lay low and endure the lies until Jesus comes.  But if there is any doubt, Jesus himself says in verse 22 "but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened".  So in the original plan of God it was going to be a longer time period, but not even the Christians could endure satan face to face that long, so the time satan is on Earth will be shortened so we can hold out and not worship him as God.

 

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

We are told when the Christians will be gathered, "Immediately after the tribulation....they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds.....they shall gather together his elect".  Which works with the thief, we need to learn about the end times and watch for it so we don't worship satan when he comes thinking he is Jesus.  The ten virgins is the same, staying pure and "virgins" spiritually by not receiving the mark of the beast before Jesus comes and opens the door to them up at the Temple that will be in the clouds during the 1,000 year reign.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

"There will be no rapture is what Jesus is saying,"

Please give me Scripture for where Jesus said the above. 

[seeking the lost]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I've been perplexed with the exact meaning of several Bible verses and parables; and how they fit together and what does it mean to me personally, and collectively as a church and the Christian body? Namely, the parable of the Ten Virgins of Matthew 25: and the following verses. I believe my understanding has changed. I'm not claiming this view is the correct one, but I think it's worth a civil discussion to compare our views.

Luke 21:36 (KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Escape all these things, what things? I don't believe Jesus is talking about the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., I believe this is yet future. I believe this talks about the 'tribulation' and escaping it in the Harpazo. 

Matthew 24:38 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 

Whom do you suppose Jesus is talking to in the above verses? Is it the heathen, Jew's or believers and the church? As in the days of Noah, everything will be normal, there's prosperity and few worries, life goes on. The flood took them all by surprise and they were not expecting it even though Noah was preaching it for a hundred years. I now believe Jesus is talking to and warning the born again and the church to not be caught off guard, walk in His ways of righteousness and not living a carnal life when He unexpectedly comes for His church, the body of Christ. 

There doesn't seem to be any divisions between those taken; such as sheep and goats, the lost or the saved. It doesn't appear to me this is a Salvation issue. It appears to me, that those whom are ready and watching and patiently waiting, not living carnal lives but walking in righteousness and following the Lord are the ones Raptured. That these cited that were left behind, had previously accepted the Lord as their personal Savior, but reverted back to a carnal life; will have to enter the "Tribulation", even though their souls are saved. They will most likely have to become martyrs for the faith?    

 

 

Consider the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13: 

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

According to this teaching the first ones taken out are the ones that were sown by the enemy.  To say the righteous are taken out first is backwards.

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, BeauJangles said:

He said that, did he? 

Sure, every eisegete knows that  

[Mal'ak]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

"There will be no rapture is what Jesus is saying,"

Please give me Scripture for where Jesus said the above. 

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

"let both grow together until the harvest....gather ye together first the tares", the wicked get gathered first...which is receiving the mark of the beast

 

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

We are told when the Christians will be gathered, "Immediately after the tribulation....they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds.....they shall gather together his elect".

 

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

"When the Son of man shall come....before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another".

 

Says it many times by Jesus himself, the rapture said to happen before the tribulation...never said once in the Bible, just one "caught up to the clouds" used out of context by Paul where if you read the entire context even says when Jesus returns "1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."  As Paul said "we which are alive and remain", and the "trump" is the seventh trumpet or last trumpet in Revelations when Jesus returns. Scared Christians not trusting God, do not want to be here during the Tribulation so as God himself said "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth"

[BeauJangles]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Sure, every eisegete knows that  

I dunno 'bout that, Omega. Some people well acquainted with me into eiegesis, are 'pre-tribbers'. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

37 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

I dunno 'bout that, Omega. Some people well acquainted with me into eiegesis, are 'pre-tribbers'. 

Yeah, I know. I am fine with pre-tribbers, as long as they exegete instead of eisegete their was to their conclusions. Not sure that it is permissible to use a noun as a verb though!