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Do you believe in Predestination?


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29 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Why limit God to a mere word? Folk have argued about this forever. Calvin's ideas were horrible and still are.

See below for Dr. Heiser's comments. I highlighted a word so it would stand out.

Council Member Participation. First Kings 22:19–23 is an important text regarding the participation of council members:
“And Micah said, ‘Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and the LORD said, “Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?” And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, “I will entice him.” And the LORD said to him, “By what means?” And he said, “I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.” And he said, “You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.” Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these, your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.’ “
Yahweh decided that Ahab should die, but allows discussion about how he should die. After some discussion, one spirit steps forward with a proposal. Yahweh accepts it and says that it will succeed. Nothing in the passage suggests that Yahweh learns anything here, or that He didn’t know what the suggestion would be. Nor does it support the idea that Yahweh predestinated the suggestion. The narrative only demonstrates that Yahweh allowed council members to choose how to carry out the decree.
The aftermath of the Babel incident shows that Yahweh expected that council beings use their own free decision making capacity. In Deuteronomy 4:19–20 and 32:8–9, Yahweh divided and assigned the nations to lesser gods (Heiser, “Sons of God”). Yahweh delegated authority—He rejected the nations as His own people and took Israel as His portion. While Yahweh is ultimately sovereign, He does not unilaterally govern the other nations. He leaves that to subordinates, who should rule according to His will. When they don’t, they are judged. This is precisely the point of Psa 82, where Yahweh judges the gods of his council who are responsible for corrupt rule over the nations of the earth.


Heiser, M. S. (2016). Divine Council. In J. D. Barry, D. Bomar, D. R. Brown, R. Klippenstein, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair Wolcott, … W. Widder (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

It see3ms to me that it is you who places such emphasis on the meaning of one word, the meaning for predestination.   Do you see God working in the new covenant as He did in the old covenant?  Or. do you see God working in His children today different then in the past, before Jesus?  God does not change, but it is never said in scripture that how He works within us does not change.  Let's place scripture beside scripture, not what man thinks.

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That one word has killed many and left many others stranded without hope. Check out its repercussions and doctrines that surround it.

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8 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

That one word has killed many and left many others stranded without hope. Check out its repercussions and doctrines that surround it.

A word is just a word, my friend.  The understanding of how the word is applied in a sentence is what may or may not become dangerous. 

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On 10/22/2019 at 9:39 AM, Justin Adams said:

I see this has dragged on far enough. David at Kylar asked God if they would give him away. God said Yes. God knew.

So God could see that as happening.. BUT, David escaped, so it did not happen!

So pre-knowing does NOT equate to predestination!!

And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of [a]the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” - Joshua 24:15

I PRE-KNOW the price of things before I go out to buy them.  Does that make me divine?   Not at all.  It means that I'm aware of what's going on.    People who sit in the dark and contemplate magical solutions to things don't understand how things work.

I PRE-KNOW how my local NFL team will perform on the gridiron on Sunday afternoon.  Mostly the uniforms show up and the players stay in the locker room.  They are losers and if I were a betting man I'd bet against them every time and make a bundle of cash.  Does that make me omniscient?  Not at all.  A bit pessimistic, perhaps, but not all-knowing.

I PRE-KNOW how some idiot on the road ahead of me will cut someone off and nearly cause an accident.  This is experience and defensive driving, nothing to do with predestination.

CONSIDER THE LAW, which most protestants are totally unaware of and reject out of hand.   If it smells of Jewish LAW, they pitch it.   Instead of God's honest LAW, which answers most questions of life, folks run to all sorts of unBiblical nonsensical explanations of things - like why does my NFL team lose all the time.

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live - Deuteronomy 30:19

We are discussing doctrine here.  

The Jewish problem is that they DO, they act out of tradition, but don't believe.  

The Christian problem is that most BELIEVE, they acknowledge ideas, but don't ACT on them.   They talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.  

One of the best examples of this lackadaisical attitude is Calvinist predestination.   Much agitated talk results from it, but in actual fact it justifies spiritual laziness and cowardice.   Did the Master not tell us to go out and make disciples?   Why bother to obey Jesus if certain men are doomed from the get-go and others are justified without ever hearing?

Am I my brother's keeper Cain said to God in Genesis 4:9.   He who holds predestination as an axiom for his life will echo those words to God when asked at the final judgment.   What will God's answer to him be??????

"Then another servant came and said, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have laid away in a piece of cloth. For I was afraid of you, because you are a harsh man. You withdraw what you did not deposit and reap what you did not sow.’ His master replied, ‘You wicked servant, I will judge you by your own words. So you knew that I am a harsh man, withdrawing what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? Why then did you not deposit my money in the bank, and upon my return I could have collected it with interest?’ Then he told those standing by, ‘Take the mina from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’ - Jesus as quoted by Luke 19:20-24

Beware O man, lest you be found to have buried your talent in the ground.  What will you say then to He who KNOWS?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

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On 8/6/2019 at 5:04 AM, ilovejcsog said:

Seems to be a really tough question.  So many different opinions.

I am always concerned about those left out without a choice to be Gods.

I don't believe in predestination but i do believe God knows every move people make. It does say that a person's name can be blotted out of the book in heaven. This assumes that God knows everything but he reacts on peoples actions too. Many are called but few are chosen is another indication.

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There are so many different thoughts on this.  Right now I have decided that we are all selected in the beginning but then we can be unselected by our own decisions in life.  This is what I have gotten out of all the opinions.  I don't think the word is clear on it. 

This is the hope I have that we all get the same chance

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On 8/6/2019 at 12:04 AM, ilovejcsog said:

Seems to be a really tough question.  So many different opinions.

I am always concerned about those left out without a choice to be Gods.

I believe.... that... I was predetermined to not believe in predestination.

I'll let you figure out how that works :)

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TULIP is a beautiful flower and a DEVILISH doctrine.

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4 hours ago, ilovejcsog said:

There are so many different thoughts on this.  Right now I have decided that we are all selected in the beginning but then we can be unselected by our own decisions in life.  This is what I have gotten out of all the opinions.  I don't think the word is clear on it. 

This is the hope I have that we all get the same chance

The Bible is very clear about predestination.

Rom. 8:29,30 (VW)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 When applied to people, the Greek word translated "foreknew" means "chose beforehand" or "foreordained".  It means favourable, relationship knowledge, in advance, not mere knowledge of facts about (this is a common error); this is like an author "knowing" his characters, before he has written what they will do.  Those who are "foreknown" are chosen for favourable treatment.

We should also notice that the chain is unbroken from predestination to glorification (which hasn't happened yet).  In other words, every element is certain to happen, because God has chosen it to be so.

Eph. 1:3-6 (VW)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

The part in bold, in verse 4 is equivalent to foreknowing us (as in Romans 8:29) and verse 5 deals with predestination (again making the result certain).

Eph. 1:11 (VW) In Him also we have been assigned to an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Salvation is of the Lord!  Don't let any freewill teachers rob you of the truths in God's word about his electing, predestining grace.

Rom. 9:15,16 (VW)

15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

God's choice of whom to save (amongst the mass of humanity, who all deserve hell), is not based upon man's will (no freewill-based "choose to believe" in the Bible!) or works but solely upon God choosing upon whom to have compassion and to whom to give mercy.

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So then there are many who are not chosen and live a hopeless life never to be able to be a child of God no matter how hard they try?

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