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Do you believe in Predestination?


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26 minutes ago, Alive said:

There are many 'choices' after conversion--aren't there?

Can the pot say to the potter....?

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me adraws him; and I will braise him up on the last day.

John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

God draws all people to Him as "God so loved the world", but our choice to believe or not is ours "that whoever believes in Him".  as God did not condemn anyone, but His desire is that all come to Him "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

26 minutes ago, Alive said:

 

Acts 16:19   But iwhen her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and jdragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

Rom. 8:29 For those whom He aforeknew, He also bpredestined to become cconformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the dfirstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He apredestined, He also bcalled; and these whom He called, He also cjustified; and these whom He justified, He also dglorified.

 

Eph. 1:5 1He apredestined us to badoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, caccording to the 2kind intention of His will,

 

Eph. 1:11 1also we 2ahave obtained an inheritance, having been bpredestined caccording to His purpose who works all things dafter the counsel of His will,

I am not sure why you provided the verse from Acts 16:19, but I already addressed predestination on the first page and explained how it speaks to me.

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5 hours ago, Seasoned by Grace said:

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The affect it has on me to be predestined, causes me to continually focus on my personal growth as a representative of Christ, not only encourages me, but gives me a new piece of information to give people who I'm witnessing to.

I think it is extremely important that we are careful to not put stumbling blocks in front of one another. If you say this perspective causes you to pursue a life of discipleship in Christ, and as an ambassador for the Kingdom to others, I see no reason why anyone should try to talk you out of it. You're on the path God set you on, there's no reason to entertain doubt. Steady on!

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1 hour ago, OneLight said:

John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

God draws all people to Him as "God so loved the world", but our choice to believe or not is ours "that whoever believes in Him".  as God did not condemn anyone, but His desire is that all come to Him "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

I am not sure why you provided the verse from Acts 16:19, but I already addressed predestination on the first page and explained how it speaks to me.

That word 'dragged' in Acts is the same word used in John 'draw'.

I understand all of the counters and scriptures to 'predestination'.

A person can take a few scriptures and construct pretty much anything as has been done since the beginning by a ton of people. In my estimation, the entire body of scripture needs to be taken into consideration when desiring to come to a conclusion on an issue. In addition to the lines of scripture; is the mind and intent of our Creator that is everywhere between the lines. The entirety of that, makes for a tapestry that depicts a great saga.

I 'believe' first because of the gift of faith through grace and then go on to continue to believe by both choice and grace.

"Lord help my unbelief". How many times have members uttered that cry!

I can't even breathe without Him. I am completely and totally in width, breadth and height dependent on Him.

After conversion, my freewill is still limited. He hems me in and keeps me in the hollow of His hand. Nobody can snatch me away and I can't walk away. I tried once. Praise the Lord!

I understand you don't agree. I have talked about these things for over 45 years with all kinds of folks.

I know I can't convince you and I don't need to. That is up to the Lord. Of this, I am also quite sure.

May the good Lord take a likin' to ya.

:-)

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4 hours ago, Alive said:

I will relate my 'salvation experience' for your thoughtfulness as it relates to the subject.

I am the way, the truth and the life and none can come to the Father but by me.

That is the first scripture I heard resound in my heart. I was 18 years old and a seeker. I was studying eastern religions and such things. One day while standing outside waiting for a ride, I found myself looking up to heaven and crying out--"God, whoever you are, I want to be aligned with truth".

A couple minutes later a guy I knew from our HS came walking down the sidewalk toward me. He invited me over the next night to play guitars and sing songs. I did to find out it was a bible study--a bunch of Jesus Freaks. LOL

John was my friend's name--he read the above scripture and I heard the Lord speak to me as audible and clear as can be--"I am the Truth".

At that moment, I believed. He put the faith into me. My will was not involved.

God draws people to Himself the way He wants to, right? It's not a super comfortable situation for us to be in if we discredit the work God is doing because it doesn't fit our doctrine. When you experience the power of God in a way that transforms you forever, it's pretty tough be talked out of that experience by someone's doctrinal argument. I really like that. We do have this inherent human need for everything to make sense in a neat and tidy way, but whatever conclusions we arrive at, God is still going to just be God, and God does what He wants.

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2 hours ago, other one said:

if I believe that Alive, then I also have to believe that he predestines some people to go to hell.....    I can not accept that and still consider God to be a just and loving being...   I simply can not go there...

I have noticed over the years that people have a hard time believing more than one verse  on a subject, and so reject the completeness of an ideal that is supported by other scriptures..

So what you end up with is churches divided because they couldn't find harmony in all the verses that supported each other or meant the same thing. I see that continually.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why does God have to predestine people to hell, because He predestined some to eternal life.

The very act of rejecting God by choice is being SELF-PREDESTINED TO HELL BECAUSE IT WAS FREE-WILL OR CHOICE to take Gods offer or reject it - Free-will..

Even though God in His eternal knowledge knows the choices believers and non-believers both will make, God doesn't have to get involved in the choices because He has known the outcome for eternity.

Predestined simply means  - we chose GOD through Christ, and so because of His eternal knowledge of our choice, he chooses us back, or receives our choice..

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If we are not predestined it's because we refused Gods offer of Christ, and so through the same free will, we chose to not be predestined and go to hell.

So, both sides have complete free-will, the difference is in the choices made and Gods fore-ordained knowledge of both.

I hope that helps :thumbsup:

 

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3 minutes ago, GreyJay said:

God draws people to Himself the way He wants to, right? It's not a super comfortable situation for us to be in if we discredit the work God is doing because it doesn't fit our doctrine. When you experience the power of God in a way that transforms you forever, it's pretty tough be talked out of that experience by someone's doctrinal argument. I really like that. We do have this inherent human need for everything to make sense in a neat and tidy way, but whatever conclusions we arrive at, God is still going to just be God, and God does what He wants.

I suppose this is true in the main. Every soul is different.

My path was a bit different. I didn't come to this particular belief through a denominational creed.

Anyway, it wasn't until years later that I looked back at my conversion experience in light of 'predestination'.

It came over time and knowing Him. I honestly don't understand how believers can not believe that God predestines us. The scriptures are so clear--to me.

For some reason, its an argument that has gone on for a long time. This is a mystery to me.

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31 minutes ago, GreyJay said:

I think it is extremely important that we are careful to not put stumbling blocks in front of one another. If you say this perspective causes you to pursue a life of discipleship in Christ, and as an ambassador for the Kingdom to others, I see no reason why anyone should try to talk you out of it. You're on the path God set you on, there's no reason to entertain doubt. Steady on!

GreyJay my brother

Thank you for tour words.

This topic has been a 4 year study, and absolutely love the conclusion the Holy Spirit helped me come to. Way beyond what I would have ever been able to achieve on my own.

At 76 years of age, and over 40 years of study, my understanding of being predestined works beautifully for me, as it is for me in complete harmony with the rest of God's word for me.

Thank you for your response. God bless you as you continue in your search of the truth - Dave

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14 minutes ago, Alive said:

This is a mystery to me.

I think it's a sign of maturity when we finally arrive at a point where we just believe God, and we're okay with not fully comprehending Him.

I worked in disability for many years as a support worker. I have come across people with significant intellectual disabilities who have a faith so profound it is really more of a knowledge than faith. Somehow, God just connected with them in a way where He made himself real to them to the point where doubt is not a struggle. That is an enviable position to me.

The Lord famously teaches that "...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God," and my own experience is that it is the same for intellectual "wealth." My doubt, fed by my own wisdom, has kept me from the Kingdom life in many ways, to my severe detriment. It has always led me into death, darkness, decrease, while simple faith has led me into life, light, and increase. Unfortunately, it has taken great personal tragedy in my life to rip away my faith in myself from under me: "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise." Psalm 51:17

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This is weird because I haven't discussed this for a long time. The Lord has occupied me with different stuff.

I am glad to be thinking about it and working through it.

I find that my mind can make a bunch of arguments for predestination, but it seems unnecessary, somehow.

Perhaps that is the Lord. Its not new--who am I to put my hand to something that so many others already have.

He has in miraculous ways shown me that faith and confession are required and very important, but that lesson didn't negate the other.

I will share the experience I just alluded to.

I was a young man still and pastoring a church. The Lord woke me up at 2 o'clock one morning and told me to go see this fella I had witnessed to. He told me right where he would be. I met him driving taxi cab. The small church wasn't wealthy. Anyway, I woke my wife and told her. She thought I was crazy. Nothing new there. I drove to where the Lord said Buddy would be. I didn't know what else to do because the Lord just said, 'go see Buddy Breau and he will be in such a place". I got out of the car and went to his cab window and asked him if he had thought about what we talked about. He said "yes--I believe" I said, praise the Lord and went home. Approximately an hour later--Buddy was robbed and shot in the head and killed.

The lesson that night was, "pay attention, this stuff is serious".

That very pointed lesson was a milestone and meshes perfectly with being predestined by God. There have been other dramatic lessons and none of them showed me different.

Days later talking to his new young wife, was another story.

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7 minutes ago, GreyJay said:

I think it's a sign of maturity when we finally arrive at a point where we just believe God, and we're okay with not fully comprehending Him.

I worked in disability for many years as a support worker. I have come across people with significant intellectual disabilities who have a faith so profound it is really more of a knowledge than faith. Somehow, God just connected with them in a way where He made himself real to them to the point where doubt is not a struggle. That is an enviable position to me.

The Lord famously teaches that "...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God," and my own experience is that it is the same for intellectual "wealth." My doubt, fed by my own wisdom, has kept me from the Kingdom life in many ways, to my severe detriment. It has always led me into death, darkness, decrease, while simple faith has led me into life, light, and increase. Unfortunately, it has taken great personal tragedy in my life to rip away my faith in myself from under me: "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise." Psalm 51:17

The Lord brought me on a similar path, GreyJay. Believe me, I understand.

I've mentioned it before. The Jacob lesson.

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