He shall subdue three kings

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, luigi said:

Hello iamlamad,

The little horn in Daniel 7 who rises from one of the 4th beasts and 10 horns is also given the designation of the beasts mouth (Daniel 7:8; 20; 24-25). This mouth which is given to the beast in Daniel 7 we see again in Revelation 13:5, given to the beast with seven heads and 10 horns. The beasts mouth makes war with the saints overcomes them in Revelation 13:7, which Daniel Daniel 7:25 describes as wearing out the saints. 

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. 

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I agree, the Antichrist Beast of Rev. 13 is going to have big mouth (so to speak) to blaspheme God.  My point, however, is that the little horn of Dan. 8 is about Antiochus, who is only a TYPE of the Beast of Rev. 13.

[luigi]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree to the utmost: the little horn of Daniel 7 is the same beast of Rev. 13 (not the false prophet). The little horn in Daniel 8 is only a TYPE of the beast of Rev. 13: being Antiochus Epiphanes.  Note carefully the CONTEXT.

In other words, two different beasts: one the real Antichrist Beast and the other a type. 

Note that when Daniel inquires as to the meaning of the he goat and the ram, the Lord instructs the angel Gabriel to make know to Daniel the meaning of the vision (Daniel 8:16). The angel Gabriel then commences by informing Daniel that the visions he saw were in regards to events during the end times (Daniel 8:17 & 19). Events in the 2nd century BC with Antiochus Epiphanes therefore do not constitute the end time visions in Daniel 8. 

Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 

19  And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

[iamlamad]

16 minutes ago, luigi said:

Note that when Daniel inquires as to the meaning of the he goat and the ram, the Lord instructs the angel Gabriel to make know to Daniel the meaning of the vision (Daniel 8:16). The angel Gabriel then commences by informing Daniel that the visions he saw were in regards to events during the end times (Daniel 8:17 & 19). Events in the 2nd century BC with Antiochus Epiphanes therefore do not constitute the end time visions in Daniel 8. 

Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 

19  And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

My friend, we have to have context. Anyone can make verses in the bible say almost anything if they are willing to ignore the context. As you will know, the context of the entire chapter is Greece versus Persia.  The question is, WHAT "end?" The end future to us - or the end of the indignation Daniel was writing of?  Of course it is in context the end of Seleucus's rein with Antiochus.

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

Last end of the indignation for at the time appointed the end shall be...  WHAT "indignation?"  That is the first question to be answered.  Note the very next verse: "the ram...Media and Persia." "the rough goat...king of Grecia."  It is talking about Alexander the Great against Persia. But in particular, what "indignation?" We find the answer in these verses:

⁹ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

¹⁰ And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

¹¹ Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

The highlighted verses tell us what the "indignation" is: the daily sacrifices were stopped, truth cast down, and worse yet, this evil prospered!  We know from history that Antiochus put an image of Zeus in the holy of holies.

Now notice verse 9: "out of one of them came forth a little horn.."  Then WHO? Look at verse 8:

⁸ Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

We know from history that Alexander the Great died early, soon after conquering Persia. His four generals took over his vast kingdom. And out of ONE of them, The Seleucus dynasty came forth Antiochus.

Now look at verse 23 again: Daniel is going to define for us the "end" written of in verse 19:

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

In other words, "the end" you imagined was future to us was not. Daniel was talking about the end of the indignation he saw in the vision with Antiochus. My friend, this chapter in its entirety is history.

[luigi]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

My friend, we have to have context. Anyone can make verses in the bible say almost anything if they are willing to ignore the context. As you will know, the context of the entire chapter is Greece versus Persia.  The question is, WHAT "end?" The end future to us - or the end of the indignation Daniel was writing of?  Of course it is in context the end of Seleucus's rein with Antiochus.

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

Last end of the indignation for at the time appointed the end shall be...  WHAT "indignation?"  That is the first question to be answered.  Note the very next verse: "the ram...Media and Persia." "the rough goat...king of Grecia."  It is talking about Alexander the Great against Persia. But in particular, what "indignation?" We find the answer in these verses:

⁹ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

¹⁰ And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

¹¹ Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

The highlighted verses tell us what the "indignation" is: the daily sacrifices were stopped, truth cast down, and worse yet, this evil prospered!  We know from history that Antiochus put an image of Zeus in the holy of holies.

Now notice verse 9: "out of one of them came forth a little horn.."  Then WHO? Look at verse 8:

⁸ Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

We know from history that Alexander the Great died early, soon after conquering Persia. His four generals took over his vast kingdom. And out of ONE of them, The Seleucus dynasty came forth Antiochus.

Now look at verse 23 again: Daniel is going to define for us the "end" written of in verse 19:

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

In other words, "the end" you imagined was future to us was not. Daniel was talking about the end of the indignation he saw in the vision with Antiochus. My friend, this chapter in its entirety is history.

Good morning Iamlamad, 

If the Lord wanted to convey data to us about the end times (today), about nations and things that did not exist in the 6th century BC when Daniel lived; one way the Lord often uses is through metaphors.

The he goat with the prominent horn who is described representing the first king of Greece (Dan 8:21), traverses the whole earth from the West without touching the ground (Dan 8:5), and totally annihilates the ram (Dan 8:7) representing the lands of Media and Persia (Dan 8:20). 

The first issue to note is that the nation of Greece is relatively next door to Media and Persia, and would not therefore need to traverse the whole earth from the West to reach these nations. The second item to note is that the ram accomplishes the destruction of Media and Persia without him touching the ground. As such and taking into consideration that these events occur during the end times, the he goat then who touches not the ground to annihilate Media and Persia would represent a prominent air force.

The next issue needing addressing is that Media and Persia do not exist today. Today, however, where Media and Persia did exist, are the nations of Iran and Iraq.  

Now comes the issue of Modern day Greece. Modern day Greece is not at war with Iran and Iraq, and its air force would in all likelihood have no chance against both these nations militaries combined. Here now is where using Greece of the 6th century BC comes into play. The nation of Greece during the days of Daniel in the 6th century BC was the most technologically advanced nation of its day. Greece was also where the concept of democracy was born. We now have four criteria to look for candidate nations. 1st criterion: The he goats prominent horn represents the world's prominent air force. 2nd criterion: The he goat needs to traverse the whole earth from the west to reach what today are the nations of Iran and Iraq. 3rd criterion: The he goat is the most technologically advanced of today, as was ancient Greece in the 6th century BC. 4th criterion: It is a democracy as was ancient Greece. 

This data about Greece during the end times is confirmed again in Daniel 12:4 & 9, where the angel informs Daniel that the visions he saw in chapters 11 & 12 regard the end times. The little horn (a.k.a. the Antichrist), who wears out the saints (Dan 7:25), and casts truth to the ground (Dan 8:12), is seen again in Daniel 11:30-36 where he kills many of the faithful.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Edited September 15, 2019 by luigi

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, luigi said:

Good morning Iamlamad, 

If the Lord wanted to convey data to us about the end times (today), about nations and things that did not exist in the 6th century BC when Daniel lived; one way the Lord often uses is through metaphors.

The he goat with the prominent horn who is described representing the first king of Greece (Dan 8:21), traverses the whole earth from the West without touching the ground (Dan 8:5), and totally annihilates the ram (Dan 8:7) representing the lands of Media and Persia (Dan 8:20). 

The first issue to note is that the nation of Greece is relatively next door to Media and Persia, and would not therefore need to traverse the whole earth from the West to reach these nations. The second item to note is that the ram accomplishes the destruction of Media and Persia without him touching the ground. As such and taking into consideration that these events occur during the end times, the he goat then who touches not the ground to annihilate Media and Persia would represent a prominent air force.

The next issue needing addressing is that Media and Persia do not exist today. Today, however, where Media and Persia did exist, are the nations of Iran and Iraq.  

Now comes the issue of Modern day Greece. Modern day Greece is not at war with Iran and Iraq, and its air force would in all likelihood have no chance against both these nations militaries combined. Here now is where using Greece of the 6th century BC comes into play. The nation of Greece during the days of Daniel in the 6th century BC was the most technologically advanced nation of its day. Greece was also where the concept of democracy was born. We now have four criteria to look for candidate nations. 1st criterion: The he goats prominent horn represents the world's prominent air force. 2nd criterion: The he goat needs to traverse the whole earth from the west to reach what today are the nations of Iran and Iraq. 3rd criterion: The he goat is the most technologically advanced of today, as was ancient Greece in the 6th century BC. 4th criterion: It is a democracy as was ancient Greece. 

This data about Greece during the end times is confirmed again in Daniel 12:4 & 9, where the angel informs Daniel that the visions he saw in chapters 11 & 12 regard the end times. The little horn (a.k.a. the Antichrist), who wears out the saints (Dan 7:25), and casts truth to the ground (Dan 8:12), is seen again in Daniel 11:30-36 where he kills many of the faithful.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Please keep in mind, Daniel wrote this chapter perhaps 300 years before Alexander the Great was born. It WAS prophecy - Daniel foretelling the future. But it was prophecy about Alexander the Great and Darius of Persia.  Your imagination and great desire to find end times future to us in this chapter is causing you to add meaning that is not in the text.  May I suggest you read every commentary you can find on this chapter?

For example, Matthew Henry Commentary:   The ram with two horns was the second empire, that of Media and Persia. He saw this ram overcome by a he-goat. This was Alexander the Great.

Ellicot's Commentary: Was broken.—This points to the sudden and unexpected end of Alexander, B.C. 323.

Benson Commentary:  by the defeat and death of Antigonus in the battle of Ipsus they were reduced to four, Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy, and Seleucus; who parted Alexander’s dominions between them, and divided and settled them into four kingdoms, which are the four notable horns that came up in the room of the first great horn, and are the same as the four heads of the leopard, chap. 7.

I will agree that Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 11 & 12 have verses about out future. But there is nothing in chapter 8  about our future.

Notice this verse:

Dan. 2: ⁴⁴ And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

And this:

Dan. 7:

¹² As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

¹³ I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

¹⁴ And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

These verses show that although the prophecy at first read seems to be about the near future, it is also about time future yet to us. There are no similar verses in chapter 8.

[luigi]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please keep in mind, Daniel wrote this chapter perhaps 300 years before Alexander the Great was born. It WAS prophecy - Daniel foretelling the future. But it was prophecy about Alexander the Great and Darius of Persia.  Your imagination and great desire to find end times future to us in this chapter is causing you to add meaning that is not in the text.  May I suggest you read every commentary you can find on this chapter?

For example, Matthew Henry Commentary:   The ram with two horns was the second empire, that of Media and Persia. He saw this ram overcome by a he-goat. This was Alexander the Great.

Ellicot's Commentary: Was broken.—This points to the sudden and unexpected end of Alexander, B.C. 323.

Benson Commentary:  by the defeat and death of Antigonus in the battle of Ipsus they were reduced to four, Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy, and Seleucus; who parted Alexander’s dominions between them, and divided and settled them into four kingdoms, which are the four notable horns that came up in the room of the first great horn, and are the same as the four heads of the leopard, chap. 7.

I will agree that Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 11 & 12 have verses about out future. But there is nothing in chapter 8  about our future.

Notice this verse:

Dan. 2: ⁴⁴ And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

And this:

Dan. 7:

¹² As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

¹³ I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

¹⁴ And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

These verses show that although the prophecy at first read seems to be about the near future, it is also about time future yet to us. There are no similar verses in chapter 8.

Please keep in mind that the Word is not Daniel making up a story-foretelling the future as you put it. The data about the beast, the little horn who is the beast's mouth, and Greece who is the Northern kingdom is God's Word to Daniel.

The Lord gives us data about Greece in Daniel 8 and again in Daniel 11. The Lord informs us in Daniel 8:17 & 19, and Daniel 12:4 & 9 that these events involving Greece occur during the end times. The Lord tells us in Daniel 7:25 that the little horn who is the beasts mouth who speaks great things will wear out the saints. This data is further corroborated in Daniel 11:30-36 where the saints experience persecution and death at the hands of Greece's/the Northern kingdom's king. 

There were no saints when Alexander the Great was in the Middle East. And when Alexander the Great went to the Middle East he did this on foot; he did not traverse the whole world from the West without touching the ground. 

iamlamad, The Lord is not an author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), which if the little horn who is the beasts mouth in Daniel 7:8,20, & 25, were not also the little horn in Daniel 8, would make the data confusing. The little horn in Daniel 8:9 who casts heavens stars to the ground, casting truth to the ground in Daniel 8:10-12, representing the first king of Greece (Daniel 8:21), who destroys the holy people and stands up against God (Daniel 8:24-25), is the same beasts mouth in Daniel 7:25 who will stand up against God and wear out the saints/holy people. This destruction of the holy people by the first king of Greece who is the beast's mouth, is further reiterated in Daniel 11:30-36.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 

Daniel 11:30  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 

³² And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

³³ And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

³⁴ Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

³⁵ And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

³⁶ And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

[luigi]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

I will agree that Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 11 & 12 have verses about out future. But there is nothing in chapter 8  about our future.

 

The little horn who magnifies himself in Daniel 8:11 & 25 , is the king of Greece in Daniel 11:36-37 who magnifies himself above every god. And this one who magnifies himself above every god is this same one in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 who exalts himself above all that is called God. He is a narcissist.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 11:36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, luigi said:

The little horn who magnifies himself in Daniel 8:11 & 25 , is the king of Greece in Daniel 11:36-37 who magnifies himself above every god. And this one who magnifies himself above every god is this same one in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 who exalts himself above all that is called God. He is a narcissist.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 11:36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

Do you understand a "type" of the Beast is called a "type" because he does similar things to what the real Beast does (or will do)? have you read ANY of the commentaries on this passage?

When Antiochus tried to stop them from worshiping God the way God demanded, he was was magnifying himself to the PRINCE or the preincarnate Christ who established the LAW (Daily Sacrifices)  with Israel.  Antiochus did magnify himself in his heart. 

Daniel 11, starting in verse 36 is about the Beast of Revelation. BEFORE verse 36 it is about Antiochus.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, luigi said:

Please keep in mind that the Word is not Daniel making up a story-foretelling the future as you put it. The data about the beast, the little horn who is the beast's mouth, and Greece who is the Northern kingdom is God's Word to Daniel.

The Lord gives us data about Greece in Daniel 8 and again in Daniel 11. The Lord informs us in Daniel 8:17 & 19, and Daniel 12:4 & 9 that these events involving Greece occur during the end times. The Lord tells us in Daniel 7:25 that the little horn who is the beasts mouth who speaks great things will wear out the saints. This data is further corroborated in Daniel 11:30-36 where the saints experience persecution and death at the hands of Greece's/the Northern kingdom's king. 

There were no saints when Alexander the Great was in the Middle East. And when Alexander the Great went to the Middle East he did this on foot; he did not traverse the whole world from the West without touching the ground. 

iamlamad, The Lord is not an author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), which if the little horn who is the beasts mouth in Daniel 7:8,20, & 25, were not also the little horn in Daniel 8, would make the data confusing. The little horn in Daniel 8:9 who casts heavens stars to the ground, casting truth to the ground in Daniel 8:10-12, representing the first king of Greece (Daniel 8:21), who destroys the holy people and stands up against God (Daniel 8:24-25), is the same beasts mouth in Daniel 7:25 who will stand up against God and wear out the saints/holy people. This destruction of the holy people by the first king of Greece who is the beast's mouth, is further reiterated in Daniel 11:30-36.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 

Daniel 11:30  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 

³² And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

³³ And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

³⁴ Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

³⁵ And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

³⁶ And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

There is no confusion except in the mind of some readers. Daniel is extremely clear in chapter 8 about who he is talking: the FIRST King of Greece. " the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. "  Note that the first horn was broken; refering to Alexander's untimely death. " that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. " Note that none of the four that took over had Alexander's power.

Then note that out of one of them: that is one of the four generals that took over a little horn came. That would be Antiochus who came out of the Seleucus branch.  All of this is in the context of Greece vs Persia.

[luigi]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Do you understand a "type" of the Beast is called a "type" because he does similar things to what the real Beast does (or will do)? have you read ANY of the commentaries on this passage?

When Antiochus tried to stop them from worshiping God the way God demanded, he was was magnifying himself to the PRINCE or the preincarnate Christ who established the LAW (Daily Sacrifices)  with Israel.  Antiochus did magnify himself in his heart. 

Daniel 11, starting in verse 36 is about the Beast of Revelation. BEFORE verse 36 it is about Antiochus.

To magnify oneself, and to exalt oneself is to see oneself in a narcissistic form of grandeur. It is relatively pointless to continue arguing when I have already pointed out numerous inconsistencies with your perspective which I backed up with scriptures, while you continue to assert what I perceive to be your long held dogmas. I keep an open mind, knowing that some of my perspectives will also be wrong, as we are all currently deceived by Satan (Revelation 12:9).

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.