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Your right on the money it is Isaiah. Thanks so much for your insights.  God's blessings

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4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Your point is pointless because no one tries to put for example, the 6th trumpet before the 5th trumpet.  Maybe the question you should be asking yourself is why did John number anything if we are supposed to accept it all as chronological?  It wouldn't be necessary, would it?  Or, maybe you should explain why so many of the numerous other prophetic writings are not chronological, but this one has to be?

Believe it or not, some people even try to rearrange John's numbered events! I have seen it.

Each book in the bible does not have to be like each other book. Individuals write differently than others. I see Revelation as mostly one long vision. I don't think Isaiah was one long vision. Neither was Daniel.

Look at this this way; it is written in a specific order. If someone thinks it is out of order, to make sense, they should be able to show examples as to WHY they need to rearrange.

It may be the difference is how someone labels something in the book. Take chapter 7 for example: I label that as an "intermission" such as at a long play. When the curtains close, people rearrange the set to fit the next act. This is what I see John doing, or God doing as He is showing John the vision. Two events absolutely must take place before the 7th seal is opened, for that seal allows the book to be opened and the book contains at the very least, the trumpet judgments.

So John broke from his narrative of the seals (closed the curtain) and shows us the sealing of the 144,000 for their protection, then the raptured church safe in heaven. Again, these two events MUST happen before the 70th week will begin with the trumpet judgments.

Someone once said this was John "backpeddling." Others might call this something else than an intermission, perhaps a parenthesis. The point is, it fits perfectly where it is with John's chronology.

Wingnut, if you think you must rearrange something, show us where and why.

However, anyone that must rearrange to fit a theory is going to be proven wrong. For example, many people wish to move the 6th seal to fit somewhere in the trumpets or somewhere in the vials. Such theories are going to be proven wrong. The truth is, all seals are sealing the book and cannot be moved anywhere. Their only purpose is to keep anyone from opening the book (to start the trumpet judgments) before all 7 seals are opened first.

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5 hours ago, breathoflife said:

the group who flee are the faithful remnant. They flee because anti-Christ has destroyed apostate Israel as Isaiah says the Lord has burned the last of the dross out of that nation. antiChrist goes after the faithful remnant. This brings the Lord back to defend and save this group who has been reduced to 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. Just as in Jerusalem the Church was about to be destroyed and the Lord had Titus come and save the remnant by having Titus destroy the apostate portion of Israel.

Sorry, but  you are mixing up separate passages, imagining they are the same. The 144,000 get seals for their protection from the trumpet judgments, during the first half of the week, then are raptured to heaven. When (in the vision) John sees them again, they are in heaven before the throne. They are "firstfruits" meaning, they are the very first of Israel to receive their resurrection bodies.

ARound the time that  the 144,000 are raptured to heaven, the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. He will become possessed by Satan and become the Beast. Those who see this abomination, a man proclaiming to be God, living in Judea, will remember the words of Jesus and flee into the wilderness. They are NOT the 144,000, they are those who will be living in Judea.

You are right though, others will be in the city of Jerusalem and not flee and be trapped there, but when Jesus touches down, that group will escape through the new valley.  In Daniel 12 God gives us His purpose: to totally "shatter" or destroy the power of these people (the nation of Israel) until it looks like Israel will be gone forever, and they cry unto God. (Now their faith is in their IDF (Israeli Defense Forces). God is going to destroy their IDF. He is going to bring them almost to the point of all hope gone, so that their ONLY hope is God.

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37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

they should be able to show examples as to WHY they need to rearrange.

 

You know as well as I do the examples, we just discussed the harvest of the earth in Revelation 14 on another thread.  We have in the past discussed the events of the 7th trumpet that appear in chapter 11.  The list goes on and on, and you see it yourself, but refuse to admit it for whatever reason.  Good luck with that.  :laugh:

 

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6 hours ago, breathoflife said:

I love discussing things with you so here goes.

Isaiah 2 shows apostate Israel on the Day of the Lord she is filled with false gods and other superstitions from the east. The Day of the Lord is at the end of the Last Week of Years. The Millennial begins after anti-Christ and the false prophet are defeated thrown into the Lake of Fire. Satan brought down in unbreakable chains and put in the Bottomless pit for the thousand years. Who do you think dealt with them throughout the OT. The Father has never been seen, the Son is manifested over and over Paul tells us the Rock was Christ. Lastly no one can the unholy spirit while he counterfeits the Holy Spirit because he is like the wind. We see the fruit of the unholy spirit in the fruit he produces denying the Son, Jesus etc. 

Google last time I checked was not a big player in Bible commentary. How did they trace their line> the only two genealogies that survive are the ones of the Lord Jesus. One in Matthew and the other in Luke. 

apostate Israel has taken The Way of Cain the rejection of the true Passover Lamb. They deny Him now calling Him such things  as "The Hung One." Scripture goes so far as to say because of the apostate portion of Israel the Name of the Lord is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of their rejection of the Lord. Again who walked in the Garden with Adam? Who met with Moses face to face? 

I will state it again there can be no worship until they possess the fire from heaven Re. 13: 13 because they cannot use strange fire Lev 10: 1 2 Th2: 4. Again this is why the false prophet, false Elijah brings fire from heaven. It will convince apostate Israel that this is Elijah preparing the way of Messiah. it is only now with what they believe is NOT strange fire would they re-start temple worship and service. That false worshipper comment misses the mark. Their worship is real worship the object of that worship is what is false making their sincere worship false. your turn my friend 

Yes, "on the day of the Lord," but the day of the Lord may well extend into eternity - being a very long period of time. It STARTS with the earthquake shown at the 6th seal, fulling the prophecy of Isaiah 2. The DAY then extends for the time of the 70th week (7 years) and probably past that to the coming of our Lord as shown in Revelation, and probably on through the 1000 year reign.

The Day of the Lord is at the end of the Last Week of Years  Why do you ignore what is written? Read it again!

1And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now, either you think "the Day of His wrath" is not the same as "the day of the Lord" or you are faced with trying to rearrange the book, putting this 6th seal somewhere around chapter 19 in Revelation. Which is it?

John shows is here at the 6th seal is the start of the Day of the Lord. (It is the same as the day of His wrath.) It is here in chapter 6 while Jesus coming is in chapter 19, and NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET. Back up ten paces and see the forest: this seal is one of 7 that is sealing a book. That his their only purpose. once the book is opened, the seals are forgotten. Keep in mind, what we read in chapter 8 it what is written INSIDE THE BOOK. (That was the purpose of opening the seals: so the BOOK can be opened.) Note then that at the 7th trumpet (written inside the book) is where Satan finally gets dethroned: Jesus gets His planet back. This is the goal God is working towards as each seal is opened.

I believe the entire 70th week is what is written inside this book. I could be wrong, but then, I could be right. It would be impossible then to move a seal from where John wrote it to somewhere else. Why? Because it is sealing the BOOK. God's goal is to get that book opened so He can get Satan kicked out as the prince of this world. Always remember, any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit the theory is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

Therefore you are mistaken about the Day starting at the end. The truth is, it starts BEFORE the 70th week starts. probably 10 days before (the ten days of Awe.)

Lastly no one [see?] can the unholy spirit  All demonic spirits are invisible to the normal eyes. Anyway, show us a verse with this "unholy spirit." I have never heard of it. Of course, Satan himself is unholy and he is a spirit.....

The Father has never been seen  Again I must disagree; Both Isaiah and Ezekiel saw Him on the throne. But no one has seen Him clearly. Stephen saw Him on the throne with Jesus standing at His right hand.

Again who walked in the Garden with Adam? Who met with Moses face to face?   Of Course It is always the ROCK who is seen on earth. I won't disagree with you here.  On the other hand, has the Father EVER been seen off His throne?

there can be no worship until they possess the fire from heaven Re. 13: 13  Oh my! I cannot believe you wrote this. Perhaps you mistyped. The fire in 13:13 is FALSE FIRE. Satan is behind that. Please, answer this question:

26 And the man [Abraham's servant] bowed down his head, and worshipped the Lord. 26 And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the Lord.

Was this true worship? Can people NOT BORN AGAIN worship God? The answer should be obvious. OF COURSE they can! My point is, people in Israel today  - NOT born again - worship God. It is a fact. It is also a fact, some in Israel LOVE the Lord - with all their heart. They just don't know (yet) that Jesus is their Messiah. It seems some will not know until they SEE the nail prints in His hands and ask Him how He got those nail holes.

this is why the false prophet, false Elijah brings fire from heaven. It will convince apostate Israel that this is Elijah preparing the way of Messiah.  Sorry, but you missed it yet again. The false fire is to convince the world that the BEAST is the real God of the Jews - the God of creation. This IS the false worship that deceives the entire world: that the Beast IS GOD. The truth is, Satan is possessing the Beast so the world is worshiping Satan. They will be SO DECEIVED!

it is only now with what they believe is NOT strange fire would they re-start temple worship

Sorry, computer locked up...had to quit.

the object of that worship is what is false making their sincere worship false.  Sorry, don't buy it. God will certainly accept their worship, but He cannot do much for them because they missed their Messiah. They are worshiping the very same God they have worshiped since Abraham. Therefore I disagree.

Edited by iamlamad
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41 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

You know as well as I do the examples, we just discussed the harvest of the earth in Revelation 14 on another thread.  We have in the past discussed the events of the 7th trumpet that appear in chapter 11.  The list goes on and on, and you see it yourself, but refuse to admit it for whatever reason.  Good luck with that.  :laugh:

 

There is no problem with the 7th trumpet mentioned in chapter 10. It only tells us what WILL happen (future) when the 7th trumpet is sounded. Then, it IS sounded in the next chapter. That is good chronology! 

So do you leave all the seals where John put them, or are you forced to move a seal to fit your theory?

Do you leave the 7 trumpets where they are, or are you forced to move a trumpet to fit your theory?

(Chapter 14 is minor. Moving seals, trumpets or vials is more serious!)

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13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There is no problem with the 7th trumpet mentioned in chapter 10. It only tells us what WILL happen (future) when the 7th trumpet is sounded.

 

First of all, it is not chapter 10, it is chapter 11 just like I said.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

Now, according to your timeline of events, does Jesus begin reigning on earth in chapter 11, right here at this spot, prior to all the information that follows in the next 11 chapters?

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3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

First of all, it is not chapter 10, it is chapter 11 just like I said.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

Now, according to your timeline of events, does Jesus begin reigning on earth in chapter 11, right here at this spot, prior to all the information that follows in the next 11 chapters?

It is in BOTH: I was referring to this verse:

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Let's look: 

11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

This verse gives us the answer: when the earth is given back to its rightful owner, Jesus Christ, and Satan is cast down, Jesus takes His great power to Himself (the church did have it) and He reigns.

However, that being said, He had already promised the Beast 42 months of authority, so He will certainly not go back on His word. The Beast will have His 42 months of authority.

Therefore, I have a question for you: if He gives the Beast (and Satan behind him) 42 months of authority, who or what does Jesus reign over at this time?

 

 

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

 

Typical avoidance from you, so we're back where we left off a year ago.  This conversation is over until you address what I post, and answer the question.

 

14 hours ago, wingnut- said:

First of all, it is not chapter 10, it is chapter 11 just like I said.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

Now, according to your timeline of events, does Jesus begin reigning on earth in chapter 11, right here at this spot, prior to all the information that follows in the next 11 chapters?

 

There it is again, deal with it or don't bother replying, I am not chasing your red herrings.

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14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, "on the day of the Lord," but the day of the Lord may well extend into eternity - being a very long period of time. It STARTS with the earthquake shown at the 6th seal, fulling the prophecy of Isaiah 2. The DAY then extends for the time of the 70th week (7 years) and probably past that to the coming of our Lord as shown in Revelation, and probably on through the 1000 year reign. the Day of the Lord is constrained by th length of the final week of years. 

The Day of the Lord is at the end of the Last Week of Years  Why do you ignore what is written? Read it again! Have read it again and your error is plain to see but you still make it. The Day of the Lord is completely done by the Lord and lasts for 3 1/2

1And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Notice the things that happen on the Day of the Lord are completely different than The great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. This is the Day of the Lord's Wrath

Now, either you think "the Day of His wrath" is not the same as "the day of the Lord" or you are faced with trying to rearrange the book, putting this 6th seal somewhere around chapter 19 in Revelation. Which is it?

John shows is here at the 6th seal is the start of the Day of the Lord. (It is the same as the day of His wrath.) It is here in chapter 6 while Jesus coming is in chapter 19, and NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET. Back up ten paces and see the forest: this seal is one of 7 that is sealing a book. That his their only purpose. once the book is opened, the seals are forgotten. Keep in mind, what we read in chapter 8 it what is written INSIDE THE BOOK. (That was the purpose of opening the seals: so the BOOK can be opened.) Note then that at the 7th trumpet (written inside the book) is where Satan finally gets dethroned: Jesus gets His planet back. This is the goal God is working towards as each seal is opened. rearranging what Scripture says into something else and fitting it with the muck and mire are you aware what book that is sealed? are you aware of what book it is that is being unsealed? Maybe it does not matter. 

I believe the entire 70th week is what is written inside this book. I could be wrong, but then, I could be right. It would be impossible then to move a seal from where John wrote it to somewhere else. Why? Because it is sealing the BOOK. God's goal is to get that book opened so He can get Satan kicked out as the prince of this world. Always remember, any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit the theory is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. This is the Book of Daniel that is being unsealed. rearrange, rearrange 

Therefore you are mistaken about the Day starting at the end. The truth is, it starts BEFORE the 70th week starts. probably 10 days before (the ten days of Awe.) The rearranging Scripture is what you do

Lastly no one [see?] can the unholy spirit  All demonic spirits are invisible to the normal eyes. Anyway, show us a verse with this "unholy spirit." I have never heard of it. Of course, Satan himself is unholy and he is a spirit.....Do you include fallen angels

The Father has never been seen  Again I must disagree; Both Isaiah and Ezekiel saw Him on the throne. But no one has seen Him clearly. Stephen saw Him on the throne with Jesus standing at His right hand. Jn. 1:18

Again who walked in the Garden with Adam? Who met with Moses face to face?   Of Course It is always the ROCK who is seen on earth. I won't disagree with you here.  On the other hand, has the Father EVER been seen off His throne?

there can be no worship until they possess the fire from heaven Re. 13: 13  Oh my! I cannot believe you wrote this. Perhaps you mistyped. The fire in 13:13 is FALSE FIRE. Satan is behind that. Please, answer this question: Lev. 10: 1-3

26 And the man [Abraham's servant] bowed down his head, and worshipped the Lord. 26 And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the Lord.

Was this true worship? Can people NOT BORN AGAIN worship God? The answer should be obvious. OF COURSE they can! My point is, people in Israel today  - NOT born again - worship God. It is a fact. It is also a fact, some in Israel LOVE the Lord - with all their heart. They just don't know (yet) that Jesus is their Messiah. It seems some will not know until they SEE the nail prints in His hands and ask Him how He got those nail holes.

this is why the false prophet, false Elijah brings fire from heaven. It will convince apostate Israel that this is Elijah preparing the way of Messiah.  Sorry, but you missed it yet again. The false fire is to convince the world that the BEAST is the real God of the Jews - the God of creation. This IS the false worship that deceives the entire world: that the Beast IS GOD. The truth is, Satan is possessing the Beast so the world is worshiping Satan. They will be SO DECEIVED!  

22 hours ago, breathoflife said:

Isaiah 2 shows apostate Israel on the Day of the Lord she is filled with false gods and other superstitions from the east. The Day of the Lord is at the end of the Last Week of Years. The Millennial begins after anti-Christ and the false prophet are defeated thrown into the Lake of Fire. Satan brought down in unbreakable chains and put in the Bottomless pit for the thousand years. Who do you think dealt with them throughout the OT. The Father has never been seen, the Son is manifested over and over Paul tells us the Rock was Christ. Lastly no one can the unholy spirit while he counterfeits the Holy Spirit because he is like the wind. We see the fruit of the unholy spirit in the fruit he produces denying the Son, Jesus etc. 

Google last time I checked was not a big player in Bible commentary. How did they trace their line> the only two genealogies that survive are the ones of the Lord Jesus. One in Matthew and the other in Luke. 

apostate Israel has taken The Way of Cain the rejection of the true Passover Lamb. They deny Him now calling Him such things  as "The Hung One." Scripture goes so far as to say because of the apostate portion of Israel the Name of the Lord is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of their rejection of the Lord. Again who walked in the Garden with Adam? Who met with Moses face to face? 

I will state it again there can be no worship until they possess the fire from heaven Re. 13: 13 because they cannot use strange fire Lev 10: 1 2 Th2: 4. Again this is why the false prophet, false Elijah brings fire from heaven. It will convince apostate Israel that this is Elijah preparing the way of Messiah. it is only now with what they believe is NOT strange fire would they re-start temple worship and service. That false worshipper comment misses the mark. Their worship is real worship the object of that worship is what is false making their sincere worship false. your turn my friend 

Yes, "on the day of the Lord," but the day of the Lord may well extend into eternity - being a very long period of time. It STARTS with the earthquake shown at the 6th seal, fulling the prophecy of Isaiah 2. The DAY then extends for the time of the 70th week (7 years) and probably past that to the coming of our Lord as shown in Revelation, and probably on through the 1000 year reign.

The Day of the Lord is at the end of the Last Week of Years  Why do you ignore what is written? Read it again!

1And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now, either you think "the Day of His wrath" is not the same as "the day of the Lord" or you are faced with trying to rearrange the book, putting this 6th seal somewhere around chapter 19 in Revelation. Which is it?

John shows is here at the 6th seal is the start of the Day of the Lord. (It is the same as the day of His wrath.) It is here in chapter 6 while Jesus coming is in chapter 19, and NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET. Back up ten paces and see the forest: this seal is one of 7 that is sealing a book. That his their only purpose. once the book is opened, the seals are forgotten. Keep in mind, what we read in chapter 8 it what is written INSIDE THE BOOK. (That was the purpose of opening the seals: so the BOOK can be opened.) Note then that at the 7th trumpet (written inside the book) is where Satan finally gets dethroned: Jesus gets His planet back. This is the goal God is working towards as each seal is opened.

I believe the entire 70th week is what is written inside this book. I could be wrong, but then, I could be right. It would be impossible then to move a seal from where John wrote it to somewhere else. Why? Because it is sealing the BOOK. God's goal is to get that book opened so He can get Satan kicked out as the prince of this world. Always remember, any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit the theory is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

Therefore you are mistaken about the Day starting at the end. The truth is, it starts BEFORE the 70th week starts. probably 10 days before (the ten days of Awe.)

Lastly no one [see?] can the unholy spirit  All demonic spirits are invisible to the normal eyes. Anyway, show us a verse with this "unholy spirit." I have never heard of it. Of course, Satan himself is unholy and he is a spirit.....

The Father has never been seen  Again I must disagree; Both Isaiah and Ezekiel saw Him on the throne. But no one has seen Him clearly. Stephen saw Him on the throne with Jesus standing at His right hand.

Again who walked in the Garden with Adam? Who met with Moses face to face?   Of Course It is always the ROCK who is seen on earth. I won't disagree with you here.  On the other hand, has the Father EVER been seen off His throne?

there can be no worship until they possess the fire from heaven Re. 13: 13  Oh my! I cannot believe you wrote this. Perhaps you mistyped. The fire in 13:13 is FALSE FIRE. Satan is behind that. Please, answer this question: lev, 10 

26 And the man [Abraham's servant] bowed down his head, and worshipped the Lord. 26 And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the Lord.

Was this true worship? Can people NOT BORN AGAIN worship God? The answer should be obvious. OF COURSE they can! My point is, people in Israel today  - NOT born again - worship God. It is a fact. It is also a fact, some in Israel LOVE the Lord - with all their heart. They just don't know (yet) that Jesus is their Messiah. It seems some will not know until they SEE the nail prints in His hands and ask Him how He got those nail holes.

this is why the false prophet, false Elijah brings fire from heaven. It will convince apostate Israel that this is Elijah preparing the way of Messiah.  Sorry, but you missed it yet again. The false fire is to convince the world that the BEAST is the real God of the Jews - the God of creation. This IS the false worship that deceives the entire world: that the Beast IS GOD. The truth is, Satan is possessing the Beast so the world is worshiping Satan. They will be SO DECEIVED! e

it is only now with what they believe is NOT strange fire would they re-start temple worship 

Sorry, computer locked up...had to quit.

the object of that worship is what is false making their sincere worship false.  Sorry, don't buy it. God will certainly accept their worship, but He cannot do much for them because they missed their Messiah. They are worshiping the very same God they have worshiped since Abraham. Therefore I disagree.

Edited 14 hours ago by iamlamad

it is only now with what they believe is NOT strange fire would they re-start temple worship

Sorry, computer locked up...had to quit.

the object of that worship is what is false making their sincere worship false.  Sorry, don't buy it. God will certainly accept their worship, but He cannot do much for them because they missed their Messiah. They are worshiping the very same God they have worshiped since Abraham. Therefore I disagree.

 

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