7 YEAR TRIBULATION?

[ENOCH2010]

Uriah I was with you until you said the 70 weeks are over, I do think 3 1/2 of the weeks are done. I think Jesus put a gap in the 70 weeks for the times of the Gentiles to come to a full. The book of Revelation speaks of 3 1/2 years remaining for sometime in the future to be fulfilled. But I do agree with a lot of what you say on here. I also agree with a lot of what Roy says, I guess I'm somewhere in between you two.

[Retrobyter]

On 9/29/2019 at 4:59 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Not sure where I should start...Josephus or Wikipedia. Josephus has some VERY intense critics, and for good reason which I won't go into just yet. The highlighted sentence you cited from Wikipedia cannot be found in the writings of Josephus as you stated. Wiki is able to be edited by just about anyone who puts himself to it. What you read there is commentary, and I might go so far as to say most likely from a J.W.

Anything that IS in the writing of Josephus you cited is about taking 17 talents of "treasure" from the temple. (the treasury) A man you mention pretended that Caesar wanted it etc. 

NOTHING you wrote or will find will show an idol being set up in the Holy Place. It has been tried before...and abandoned.

Shalom, Uriah.

First, get the idea of an "idol" out of your mind. I never said the "abomination" was indeed an idol nor do I believe it was such. I believe that the "abomination" was the GENTILES IN THE TEMPLE, which was truly an "abomination" to any Jew, believing Jew or not! Furthermore, the "treasury" was itself IN THE TEMPLE COMPLEX! It was PART OF THE TEMPLE!

Okay. I found a little better description of what Josephus wrote in Book 2, Chapter 14, Section 6 (and one may check out the Greek of his text, as well) at PACE - The Judean War:

(Left side: Brill translation by Steve Mason)

293 At this (1890) there was indignation (1891) among those in Hierosolyma, though they checked their tempers. But [Gessius] Florus, as if he had signed a contract (1892) to fan the flames of (1893) war, sent to the temple treasury (1894) and extracted* seventeen talents; (1895) he had dissembled (1896) that [it was] for Caesar’s needs. (1897)

294 Confusion immediately began to grip the populace: they ran together (1898) into the temple and with piercing (1899) shouts kept calling upon the name of Caesar, (1900) begging him also to free them from the tyranny (1901) of Florus.

295 Some of the insurgents (1902) had screamed (1903) the most shameful insults (1904) and, carrying around a reed basket, (1905) were demanding bits of change (1906) for him as though he were destitute (1907) and needy. He was not put off from his love of money (1908) by these [insults], (1909) but was all the more driven by rage (1910) to pursue wealth.

296 At the very least he should have gone to Caesarea and extinguished the fire (1911) of the war beginning from there (1912) and disposed of (1913) the causes of the disturbance (1914) —for which [task] he had indeed taken compensation. (1915) Instead, he rushed against Hierosolyma [Jerusalem] with an army of both cavalry and infantry, (1916) so that he might do his deeds (1917) with Roman weaponry, (1918) and strip the city (1919) through [the use of] anxiety and threats. (1920)

 

(Right side: Whiston translation by William Whiston)

293 Moreover, as to the citizens of Jerusalem, although they took this matter very ill, yet did they restrain their passion; but [Gessius] Florus acted herein as if he had been hired, and blew up the war into a flame, and sent some to take seventeen talents out of the sacred treasure, and pretended that Caesar wanted them. At this the people were in confusion immediately, and ran together to the temple, with prodigious clamors, and called upon Caesar by name, and besought him to free them from the tyranny of Florus. Some also of the seditious cried out upon Florus, and cast the greatest reproaches upon him, and carried a basket about, and begged some spills of money for him, as for one that was destitute of possessions, and in a miserable condition. Yet was not he made ashamed hereby of his love of money, but was more enraged, and provoked to get still more; and instead of coming to Cesarea, as he ought to have done, and quenching the flame of war, which was beginning thence, and so taking away the occasion of any disturbances, on which account it was that he had received a reward [of eight talents], he marched hastily with an army of horsemen and footmen against Jerusalem, that he might gain his will by the arms of the Romans, and might, by his terror, and by his threatenings, bring the city into subjection.

(Clicking on the Greek button gives this:)

293 Πρὸς τοῦτο τῶν ἐν Ἱεροσολύμοις ἀγανάκτησις ἦν, ἔτι μέντοι τοὺς θυμοὺς κατεῖχον. ὁ δὲ Φλῶρος ὥσπερ ἠργολαβηκὼς ἐκριπίζειν τὸν πόλεμον, πέμψας εἰς τὸνἱερὸν θησαυρὸν ἐξαιρεῖ δεκαεπτὰ τάλαντα σκηψάμενος εἰς τὰς Καίσαρος χρείας.

294 σύγχυσις δ᾽ εὐθέως εἶχεν τὸν δῆμον, καὶ συνδραμόντες εἰς τὸ ἱερὸν βοαῖς διαπρυσίοις τὸ Καίσαρος ἀνεκάλουν ὄνομα καὶ τῆς Φλώρου τυραννίδος ἐλευθεροῦνσφᾶς ἱκέτευον.

295 ἔνιοι δὲ τῶν στασιαστῶν λοιδορίας αἰσχίστους εἰς τὸν Φλῶρον ἐκεκράγεσαν καὶ κανοῦν περιφέροντες ἀπῄτουν αὐτῷ κέρματα καθάπερ ἀκλήρῳ καὶταλαιπώρῳ. τούτοις οὐκ ἀνετράπη τὴν φιλαργυρίαν, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ τὸ μᾶλλον χρηματίσασθαι παρωργίσθη.

296 δέον γοῦν εἰς Καισάρειαν ἐλθόντα σβέσαι τὸ τοῦ πολέμου πῦρ ἐκεῖθεν ἀρχόμενον καὶ τῆς ταραχῆς ἀνελεῖν τὰς αἰτίας, ἐφ᾽ ᾧ καὶ μισθὸν ἔλαβεν, ὁ δὲ μετὰστρατιᾶς ἱππικῆς τε καὶ πεζικῆς ἐπὶ Ἱεροσολύμων ὥρμησεν, ἵνα τοῖς Ῥωμαίων ὅπλοις ? ἐργάσηται καὶ τῷ δέει καὶ ταῖς ἀπειλαῖς περιδύσῃ τὴν πόλιν.

THESE TWO THINGS, NAMELY GENTILES STANDING IN THE TEMPLE (AN ABOMINATION) AND ARMIES SENT AGAINST JERUSALEM, were sufficient to remind the believing Jews of Yeshua`s prophecy and escape from the city.

Now, looking at what was written in Wikipedia, I noted the close link of these two sentences:

The Roman governor, Gessius Florus, responded by plundering the Second Temple, claiming the money was for the Emperor, and the next day launching a raid on the city, arresting numerous senior Jewish figures. This prompted a wider, large-scale rebellion and the Roman military garrison of Judaea was quickly overrun by the rebels, while the pro-Roman king Herod Agrippa II, together with Roman officials, fled Jerusalem.

This was the SAME Agrippa to whom Paul spoke in Acts 26!

Acts 26:24-32 (KJV)

24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice,

"Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad!" 

25 But he said,

"I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. 26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner. 

27 "King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest."

28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul,

"Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."

29 And Paul said,

"I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds."

30 And when he had thus spoken, the king rose up, and the governor, and Bernice, and they that sat with them: 31 And when they were gone aside, they talked between themselves, saying,

"This man doeth nothing worthy of death or of bonds."

32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus,

"This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar."

So, it is NOT a stretch to say that Paul planted the seed in King Herod Agrippa's heart and at a later point in time, Agrippa DID become a Christian! So, where did King Agrippa go when he "fled Jerusalem?" And, with whom did he flee? I propose that he was one of the many Christians who fled first to the mountains.

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Uriah I was with you until you said the 70 weeks are over, I do think 3 1/2 of the weeks are done. I think Jesus put a gap in the 70 weeks for the times of the Gentiles to come to a full. The book of Revelation speaks of 3 1/2 years remaining for sometime in the future to be fulfilled. But I do agree with a lot of what you say on here. I also agree with a lot of what Roy says, I guess I'm somewhere in between you two.

Hi Enoch

I understand. I could accept such a gap, but must we?  If we give it some closer thoughts we see that there is no mandate scripturally for a "gap". But there are some correlations to look at. 

First, Cornelius, as I mentioned. The apostles acknowledged that the event brought about a new era. That means the end of a previous era. We don't know how long exactly it was after the resurrection but it wasn't all that long and could actually fit well. Sort of retrospectively implied by the guidance of the Holy Spirit as it were for the end of the 70th week. 

Also I have often wondered about why the match of 3.5 yrs. in Revelation (since the things I wrote about in Daniel dissolve the existence of a 7 yr. tribulation) to the 3.5 yrs. immediately after Jesus was slain. If there is no scriptural evidence for a deliberate making of a gap in Daniel it could be something else. I have pondered the idea of God simply recompensing the world for rejecting and slaying His Son by allotting the same amount of time for punishment as He did for the world's greatest gift to mankind. 

Mostly, people have believed in a "gap" simply because it has been taught so much for recent times. NO gap violates nothing in scripture and isn't required. A shorter period (3.5 yrs.) with a gap doesn't violate either. So with the extra weight on the balance scale regarding Cornelius I lean that way too.

[Uriah]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

First, get the idea of an "idol" out of your mind. I never said the "abomination" was indeed an idol nor do I believe it was such. I believe that the "abomination" was the GENTILES IN THE TEMPLE,

Hi Retro

You wrote that a man "sent to" the temple treasury...Also that Gentiles were allowed into the temple, the court of the Gentiles. I think I read that this court is where Galileans were killed by Pilate's soldiers. And this may be connected to the aqueduct riot. Money form the treasury was wanted for it's construction. (a bit blurry now, been a while)

Any way, you have now tried multiple fulfillments to make the abomination of desolation fit into the first century. Aquilla, the land itself, and now Gentiles.

Dan 9:27- ...for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...

shiqqûwts, shik-koots'; or שִׁקֻּץ shiqquts; from H8262; disgusting, i.e. filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol:—abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

detestable thing or idol, abominable thing, abomination, idol, detested thing

Dan 11:31- ...they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.... (same word)

This was done by the Greeks and will be repeated in the near future.

 

 bdélygma, bdel'-oog-mah; from G948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:—abomination.

a foul thing, a detestable thing

of idols and things pertaining to idolatry

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Uriah

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

You wrote that a man "sent to" the temple treasury...Also that Gentiles were allowed into the temple, the court of the Gentiles. I think I read that this court is where Galileans were killed by Pilate's soldiers. And this may be connected to the aqueduct riot. Money form the treasury was wanted for it's construction. (a bit blurry now, been a while)

Any way, you have now tried multiple fulfillments to make the abomination of desolation fit into the first century. Aquilla, the land itself, and now Gentiles.

Dan 9:27- ...for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...

shiqqûwts, shik-koots'; or שִׁקֻּץ shiqquts; from H8262; disgusting, i.e. filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol:—abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

detestable thing or idol, abominable thing, abomination, idol, detested thing

Dan 11:31- ...they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.... (same word)

This was done by the Greeks and will be repeated in the near future.

 

 bdélygma, bdel'-oog-mah; from G948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:—abomination.

a foul thing, a detestable thing

of idols and things pertaining to idolatry

 

Shalom, Uriah, and Shabbat shalom, as the Shabbat approaches.

Let me just say that I owe you an apology and a thank you. I owe you an apology because I was so unclear on the details of the Jewish Roman War, that I've confused you. Second, I owe you a thank you for getting me to dig into the history deeper. It is really quite fascinating! I was already convinced (I say, by the Ruwach haQodesh [the Holy Spirit]) about the 66-70 A.D. fulfillment of the "abomination of desolation" from the PRONOUNS used in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13; and Luke 21, but you helped refine the details down to the events in 66 A.D. leading to the actual flight of the believing Jews out of Jerusalem. So, thank you for your persistence.

Here I was blaming it all on Titus, when it was actually GESSIUS FLORUS who did the deeds that forced Yeshua`s prophecy to find fulfillment in the escape of the believers. While it was Titus who was responsible for the Romans who destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D., it was Florus whose representative emmissaries violated the Temple and whose armies advanced on Jerusalem, attempting to subdue it. Fortunately (or rather, providentially), Florus was distracted and left off attempting to besiege Jerusalem, and the believers took advantage of that moment to leave the city, as ordered by the Messiah.

Also, don't make the mistake of including Daniel 11:31 into these events. Daniel 11 was a different prophecy made at a different time in Daniel's life and was fulfilled in the activities of Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" (or "Epimanes" as his opponents called him) in 167 B.C. when he set up an image of Zeus in the Temple and sacrificed a pig on the altar to Zeus, desecrating the Temple.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Retrobyter
to correct a few things

[Uriah]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Let me just say that I owe you an apology and a thank you. I owe you an apology because I was so unclear on the details of the Jewish Roman War

Hi Retro

No apology needed. Perhaps you could show where this happened. I am providing a link to the 69 years of history by Josephus.

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-2.htm

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

No apology needed. Perhaps you could show where this happened. I am providing a link to the 69 years of history by Josephus.

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-2.htm

Shalom, Uriah.

Sure. Here's Chapter 14 of Book 2. The highlighted portions are what Josephus gives us about this flight (although not being a part of it himself, knew nothing of its details):

Quote

CHAPTER 14. 

FESTUS SUCCEEDS FELIX WHO IS SUCCEEDED BY ALBINUS AS HE IS BY FLORUS; WHO BY THE BARBARITY OF HIS GOVERNMENT FORCES THE JEWS INTO THE WAR.

1. NOW it was that Festus succeeded Felix as procurator, and made it his business to correct those that made disturbances in the country. So he caught the greatest part of the robbers, and destroyed a great many of them. But then Albinus, who succeeded Festus, did not execute his office as the other had done; nor was there any sort of wickedness that could be named but he had a hand in it. Accordingly, he did not only, in his political capacity, steal and plunder every one's substance, nor did he only burden the whole nation with taxes, but he permitted the relations of such as were in prison for robbery, and had been laid there, either by the senate of every city, or by the former procurators, to redeem them for money; and no body remained in the prisons as a malefactor but he who gave him nothing. At this time it was that the enterprises of the seditious at Jerusalem were very formidable; the principal men among them purchasing leave of Albinus to go on with their seditious practices; while that part of the people who delighted in disturbances joined themselves to such as had fellowship with Albinus; and every one of these wicked wretches were encompassed with his own band of robbers, while he himself, like an arch-robber, or a tyrant, made a figure among his company, and abused his authority over those about him, in order to plunder those that lived quietly. The effect of which was this, that those who lost their goods were forced to hold their peace, when they had reason to show great indignation at what they had suffered; but those who had escaped were forced to flatter him that deserved to be punished, out of the fear they were in of suffering equally with the others. Upon the Whole, nobody durst speak their minds, but tyranny was generally tolerated; and at this time were those seeds sown which brought the city to destruction. 

2. And although such was the character of Albinus, yet did Gessius Florus (18) who succeeded him, demonstrate him to have been a most excellent person, upon the comparison; for the former did the greatest part of his rogueries in private, and with a sort of dissimulation; but Gessius did his unjust actions to the harm of the nation after a pompons manner; and as though he had been sent as an executioner to punish condemned malefactors, he omitted no sort of rapine, or of vexation; where the case was really pitiable, he was most barbarous, and in things of the greatest turpitude he was most impudent. Nor could any one outdo him in disguising the truth; nor could any one contrive more subtle ways of deceit than he did. He indeed thought it but a petty offense to get money out of single persons; so he spoiled whole cities, and ruined entire bodies of men at once, and did almost publicly proclaim it all the country over, that they had liberty given them to turn robbers, upon this condition, that he might go shares with them in the spoils they got. Accordingly, this his greediness of gain was the occasion that entire toparchies were brought to desolation, and a great many of the people left their own country, and fled into foreign provinces. 

3. And truly, while Cestius Gallus was president of the province of Syria, nobody durst do so much as send an embassage to him against Florus; but when he was come to Jerusalem, upon the approach of the feast of unleavened bread, the people came about him not fewer in number than three millions (19) these besought him to commiserate the calamities of their nation, and cried out upon Florus as the bane of their country. But as he was present, and stood by Cestius, he laughed at their words. However, Cestius, when he had quieted the multitude, and had assured them that he would take care that Florus should hereafter treat them in a more gentle manner, returned to Antioch. Florus also conducted him as far as Cesarea, and deluded him, though he had at that very time the purpose of showing his anger at the nation, and procuring a war upon them, by which means alone it was that he supposed he might conceal his enormities; for he expected that if the peace continued, he should have the Jews for his accusers before Caesar; but that if he could procure them to make a revolt, he should divert their laying lesser crimes to his charge, by a misery that was so much greater; he therefore did every day augment their calamities, in order to induce them to a rebellion.

4. Now at this time it happened that the Grecians at Cesarea had been too hard for the Jews, and had obtained of Nero the government of the city, and had brought the judicial determination: at the same time began the war, in the twelfth year of the reign of Nero, and the seventeenth of the reign of Agrippa, in the month of Artemisins [Jyar.] Now the occasion of this war was by no means proportionable to those heavy calamities which it brought upon us. For the Jews that dwelt at Cesarea had a synagogue near the place, whose owner was a certain Cesarean Greek: the Jews had endeavored frequently to have purchased the possession of the place, and had offered many times its value for its price; but as the owner overlooked their offers, so did he raise other buildings upon the place, in way of affront to them, and made working-shops of them, and left them but a narrow passage, and such as was very troublesome for them to go along to their synagogue. Whereupon the warmer part of the Jewish youth went hastily to the workmen, and forbade them to build there; but as Florus would not permit them to use force, the great men of the Jews, with John the publican, being in the utmost distress what to do, persuaded Florus, with the offer of eight talents, to hinder the work. He then, being intent upon nothing but getting money, promised he would do for them all they desired of him, and then went away from Cesarea to Sebaste, and left the sedition to take its full course, as if he had sold a license to the Jews to fight it out. 

5. Now on the next day, which was the seventh day of the week, when the Jews were crowding apace to their synagogue, a certain man of Cesarea, of a seditious temper, got an earthen vessel, and set it with the bottom upward, at the entrance of that synagogue, and sacrificed birds. This thing provoked the Jews to an incurable degree, because their laws were affronted, and the place was polluted. Whereupon the sober and moderate part of the Jews thought it proper to have recourse to their governors again, while the seditious part, and such as were in the fervor of their youth, were vehemently inflamed to fight. The seditions also among the Gentiles of Cesarea stood ready for the same purpose; for they had, by agreement, sent the man to sacrifice beforehand [as ready to support him;] so that it soon came to blows. Hereupon Jucundus, the master of the horse, who was ordered to prevent the fight, came thither, and took away the earthen vessel, and endeavored to put a stop to the sedition; but when (20) he was overcome by the violence of the people of Cesarea, the Jews caught up their books of the law, and retired to Narbata, which was a place to them belonging, distant from Cesarea sixty furlongs. But John, and twelve of the principal men with him, went to Florus, to Sebaste, and made a lamentable complaint of their case, and besought him to help them; and with all possible decency, put him in mind of the eight talents they had given him; but he had the men seized upon, and put in prison, and accused them for carrying the books of the law out of Cesarea. 

6. Moreover, as to the citizens of Jerusalem, although they took this matter very ill, yet did they restrain their passion; but Florus acted herein as if he had been hired, and blew up the war into a flame, and sent some to take seventeen talents out of the sacred treasure, and pretended that Caesar wanted them. At this the people were in confusion immediately, and ran together to the temple, with prodigious clamors, and called upon Caesar by name, and besought him to free them from the tyranny of Florus. Some also of the seditious cried out upon Florus, and cast the greatest reproaches upon him, and carried a basket about, and begged some spills of money for him, as for one that was destitute of possessions, and in a miserable condition. Yet was not he made ashamed hereby of his love of money, but was more enraged, and provoked to get still more; and instead of coming to Cesarea, as he ought to have done, and quenching the flame of war, which was beginning thence, and so taking away the occasion of any disturbances, on which account it was that he had received a reward [of eight talents], he marched hastily with an army of horsemen and footmen against Jerusalem, that he might gain his will by the arms of the Romans, and might, by his terror, and by his threatenings, bring the city into subjection. 

7. But the people were desirous of making Florus ashamed of his attempt, and met his soldiers with acclamations, and put themselves in order to receive him very submissively. But he sent Capito, a centurion, beforehand, with fifty soldiers, to bid them go back, and not now make a show of receiving him in an obliging manner, whom they had so foully reproached before; and said that it was incumbent on them, in case they had generous souls, and were free speakers, to jest upon him to his face, and appear to be lovers of liberty, not only in words, but with their weapons also. With this message was the multitude amazed; and upon the coming of Capito's horsemen into the midst of them, they were dispersed before they could salute Florus, or manifest their submissive behavior to him. Accordingly, they retired to their own houses, and spent that night in fear and confusion of face.

8. Now at this time Florus took up his quarters at the palace; and on the next day he had his tribunal set before it, and sat upon it, when the high priests, and the men of power, and those of the greatest eminence in the city, came all before that tribunal; upon which Florus commanded them to deliver up to him those that had reproached him, and told them that they should themselves partake of the vengeance to them belonging, if they did not produce the criminals; but these demonstrated that the people were peaceably disposed, and they begged forgiveness for those that had spoken amiss; for that it was no wonder at all that in so great a multitude there should be some more daring than they ought to be, and, by reason of their younger age, foolish also; and that it was impossible to distinguish those that offended from the rest, while every one was sorry for what he had done, and denied it out of fear of what would follow: that he ought, however, to provide for the peace of the nation, and to take such counsels as might preserve the city for the Romans, and rather for the sake of a great number of innocent people to forgive a few that were guilty, than for the sake of a few of the wicked to put so large and good a body of men into disorder. 

9. Florus was more provoked at this, and called out aloud to the soldiers to plunder that which was called the Upper Market-place, and to slay such as they met with. So the soldiers, taking this exhortation of their commander in a sense agreeable to their desire of gain, did not only plunder the place they were sent to, but forcing themselves into every house, they slew its inhabitants; so the citizens fled along the narrow lanes, and the soldiers slew those that they caught, and no method of plunder was omitted; they also caught many of the quiet people, and brought them before Florus, whom he first chastised with stripes, and then crucified. Accordingly, the whole number of those that were destroyed that day, with their wives and children, (for they did not spare even the infants themselves,) was about three thousand and six hundred. And what made this calamity the heavier was this new method of Roman barbarity; for Florus ventured then to do what no one had done before, that is, to have men of the equestrian order whipped (21) and nailed to the cross before his tribunal; who, although they were by birth Jews, yet were they of Roman dignity notwithstanding.

Eusebius added this information:

Quote

 

Eusebius of Caesarea ~ 340 AD CHURCH HISTORY : L.2, C.5.

CHAPTER 5. The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ

After Nero had held the power thirteen years, and Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months, Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign in Judea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there. Setting out immediately, therefore, for Rome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded, and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described. But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."

But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea [beyond the Jordan] called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men. But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable, all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire, all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalem "as in a prison," to use his own words. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up "as in a prison," they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.

But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God.

 

So, it is NOT unreasonable to understand that this is when the believing Jews ("Christians") escaped from Jerusalem as prophesied and encouraged to do so by our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, Uriah.

The bottom line is this: Yeshua`s prediction of these events, having occurred since the First Century A.D., particularly 66 A.D., means that the "tribulation" has been going on since then! It's not over, as the Preterists claim, but is still going on today! It won't be finished until the Messiah Yeshua` returns and we see the signs of His coming in the sun, moon, and stars, and the "powers of the sky" (that is, the weather).

In all that time period, the only thing that was lessened were the DAYS of that "tribulation!" That is, that God has reduced the number of days of "tribulation" within the last 2,000 years to lessen the effects of such "tribulation" upon the children of Israel and the Believers, as well.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Retrobyter

[Justin Adams]

I read with interest you posts. I feel that much in prophesy has been accomplished and the popular rapture and this kind of eschatology is flawed, simplistic and hype for the 'masses'. I also do not see that the 1000 years is particularly literal. It make for good stories but the facts are anything but 'a nice story'.

The 'harmagedden' thing (attached) seems odd as well. It may just mean that the final battle is for God's Holy mountain, I.e. Jerusalem or Zion. John was very clever with words, meanings and inflections. It is also possible that Revelation was written in Aramaic before AD 70 and later translated into Greek. Few understood Hebrew and only a couple of church fathers did too. All things Hebrew were frowned upon so our later 'theology' is sadly lacking since the study of the original texts we got from Qumran differ from the 'acceptable' rewrites that were later offered in the early period of the church. The Septuagint was verboten since it included 'two powers in heaven' allusions that previously were acceptable theology for Israelis' Theology. The Masoretic text was also 'rewritten' to bring it in line with Israeli current doctrine. Only Qumran seems to have the originals. Though the orthodox eastern church does seem to have some originals as well.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Justin Adams

[Uriah]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, Uriah.

The bottom line is this: Yeshua`s prediction of these events, having occurred since the First Century A.D., particularly 66 A.D., means that the "tribulation" has been going on since then! It's not over, as the Preterists claim, but is still going on today! It won't be finished until the Messiah Yeshua` returns and we see the signs of His coming in the sun, moon, and stars, and the "powers of the sky" (that is, the weather).

In all that time period, the only thing that was lessened were the DAYS of that "tribulation!" That is, that God has reduced the number of days of "tribulation" within the last 2,000 years to lessen the effects of such "tribulation" upon the children of Israel and the Believers, as well.

Hi Retro

Hopefully in the next few days I can provide some scriptural comparison for you when I can squeeze in some OCR formatting. As to the two material sources you posted, it is clear that there is no documented event where anyone saw anything set up in the Holy Place. Eusebius merely inserts his take on things a few hundred years after the alleged fulfillment which he is known to do.