7 YEAR TRIBULATION?

[douggg]

18 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Thanks dougg

True, however Matt. 24 says, - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Jesus goes on to list things we see in Revelation, like the sun darkened, moon not giving light and the powers of the heavens being shaken. So the angel in Rev 7 is talking about a time that those brothers and sisters went through that killed a significant part of the population of the planet. There are a number of tribulations in the bible but these two match as being the same one.

Uriah, the reason I am such a stickler for such things, is there are terms used often indiscriminately.     The tribulation being one of them, the subject of this thread.

At Lion and Lamb ministries, I hear Dr. Regan (and I think Nathan Jones) use the term "the tribulation" to refer to the 70th week.    Keep in mind that they hold the pre- "trib" view.   Which is why I think they use the term "the tribulation" that way.     To me, it is misleading.  

[Uriah]

Just now, douggg said:

Uriah, the reason I am such a stickler for such things, is there are terms used often indiscriminately.     The tribulation being one of them, the subject of this thread.

At Lion and Lamb ministries, I hear Dr. Regan (and I think Nathan Jones) use the term "the tribulation" to refer to the 70th week.    Keep in mind that they hold the pre- "trib" view.   Which is why I think they use the term "the tribulation" that way.     To me, it is misleading.  

I know dougg, they are pre tribbers, and yes, sorry to say there is often highly selective usages in wording among them. They are good people but they mustn't be able see how they go to extremes to maintain their position.

[douggg]

8 minutes ago, Uriah said:

I know dougg, they are pre tribbers, and yes, sorry to say there is often highly selective usages in wording among them. They are good people but they mustn't be able see how they go to extremes to maintain their position.

I agree, that they are not intentionally misleading anyone by using that terminology.

[Uriah]

16 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

Revelation 11:3
And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 

 

They preach 1260 days.

 

Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. 

 

Israel is to flee for 1260 days.

 

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 

Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 

 

The arrival of the Two Witnesses along with the treaty of 7 years with the Antichrist and Israel kicks off the events of Revelation.

Hi Abdicate

You do realize, I hope that significant things run concurrently in Revelation, right? Even in your post you show how that is done, otherwise you would be beyond the 7 yr. mark. ( I know, you have a typo as well, no big deal) The same is true in Rev. By staying in the CONTEXT, Dan. 9:27 refers to to the covenant that Daniel prayed about earlier in the chapter. That is what he prayed about, that is what the angel answered about. Therefore the one in the midst of the week is the Messiah. Tomorrow I will post a textual analysis I learned a while back that shows the pattern and the supporting scriptures from the NT. Meanwhile that linear reading of Rev. throws people off. See  my above post about the trumpets and vials, please.

[Uriah]

12 minutes ago, douggg said:

I agree, that they are not intentionally misleading anyone by using that terminology.

That said, I have interacted with some that no matter how contradictory their reasoning and no matter how thoroughly it is explained, for some unknown reason there is a dedication to the concept that goes beyond the norms.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro, (long time)

I am with you on the part about being associated with the Messiah in v. 26. I plan to go into more detail about that, you should like it (mostly). I think the tribulation is yet to come because of it being called so by an angel in Rev. 7. So it will/must include those events that are cataclysmic in nature from that book.

Shalom, Uriah.

Well, to be clear, I meant that they saw the START of the tribulation in the First Century A.D.; however, the tribulation has continued now for almost 2,000 years. The END of the tribulation will be just prior to the Second Coming. Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse reveals this in the terminology used:

Matthew 24:4-5, 9-11, 15-31 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ (I am the Messiah)'; and shall deceive many.
...

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation/pressure"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
...
15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then (you) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 (You) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither (you) let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation (Greek: thlipsis megalee = "terrible tribulation/pressure"), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo (Look!), here is Christ (here's the Messiah!),' or 'there (There He is!)'; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs (lying/fake Messiahs), and false prophets (lying/fake prophets), and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before (beforehand).

26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold (Look!), he is in the desert!'; go not forth (don't go out there!): 'behold (Look!), he is in the secret chambers!'; believe it not (don't you believe it!). 27 For as the lightning cometh (flashes) out of the east, and shineth (enlightens objects) even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (Wherever the dead body is, that's where the vultures will flock!)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation (Greek: Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin = "Immediately but after the tribulation/pressure") of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

When Yeshua` used "ye," "you," and "your," He was speaking DIRECTLY TO those disciples seated around Him that day upon the Mount of Olives. When the pronouns changed, He was looking off into the future!

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, douggg said:

What is your basis to think the tribulation and the great tribulation ends a "month" earlier than the end of the 70th week?    Why a month is what I am asking.

What are you calling the last month of the 70 weeks?

____________________________________________________________________

I don't see a need for the term "tribulation".   It seems to me to be a confusion factor, especially if you are defining it as being a month less than the 70th week (7 years).    

 

 

 

Hi douggg,

Jesus tells us `Immediately after the TRIBULATION...` (Matt. 24: 29) So there is a tribulation and a great tribulation, for the Lord also mentions the great tribulation too. I think I will do a specific thread of the two -

1. Daniel`s 70th week,

2. The Tribulation.

Marilyn.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi douggg,

Jesus tells us `Immediately after the TRIBULATION...` (Matt. 24: 29) So there is a tribulation and a great tribulation, for the Lord also mentions the great tribulation too. I think I will do a specific thread of the two -

1. Daniel`s 70th week,

2. The Tribulation.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I am reading Matthew 24:29, as the tribulation within the great tribulation.    It doesn't mean that the great tribulation is over at that point. 

I am thinking the "after the tribulation of those days" is referring to the trumpet and most of the bowl judgements are over at that point.   With the sixth and seventh bowl judgements still remaining in the great tribulation.

The great tribulation ends the day Jesus returns, and the abomination of desolation that triggered it is destroyed on the day Jesus returns.

Please read my opening post about the abomination of desolation turned to ashes in....

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/239901-the-abomination-of-desolation-turned-to-ashes/

____________________________________________________________

"1. Daniel`s 70th week,

2. The Tribulation."

Daniel's 70th week begins - the world saying peace and safety for a while - shattered by the transgression of desolation event - the revealed man of sin killed and brought back to life as the beast - the image of the beast made and placed in the temple, triggering the great tribulation.

The tribulation of those days is referring to within the great tribulation time frame.   Not the broadly based 70th week, which starts out with the world saying peace and safety for a while.

Jesus in Matthew 24 never referred to the beginning of the 70th week.    Just the beginning of the great tribulation.     So the tribulation of those days is within the days of the great tribulation.

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by douggg

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Abdicate said:

The arrival of the Two Witnesses along with the treaty of 7 years with the Antichrist and Israel kicks off the events of Revelation.

With this I agree.

[Justin Adams]

I do not think we are waiting for a 70th week. Just my take on all the stuff I have studied. Also I do not see any 7 year tribulation either.

I therefore do no subscribe to any end times scenario. I do not think we should trouble Christians with eschatology since so much in the way of resource has already been expended on this stuff. Setting times and dates seems fraught with problems. If we take apocalyptic ideas out of their settings (Cosmic Geography) we have extreme difficulty applying a linear timeline to them. Perhaps we are not meant to do this??

That things will get horribly bad is evident. That humans will become even more deranged is evident.

That God is in charge and does not make us all privy to His Plans is evident. 

That Yeshua returns is also promised and to a believer is also evident. More than this we really cannot say since we do not have all the data.

Prophesy is recognizable in hindsight.

"Had they but known, they never would have killed the King of Glory" Even then, after He arose, in the upper room He had to open their minds to 'get it'.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Justin Adams