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7 YEAR TRIBULATION?


Uriah

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Greetings,

I can't find it. There certainly appears to be a 7 year length of time at the end of the age. There is a period called 'great tribulation'. There is a mention of that time, 'the tribulation of those days'. Both are quite specific to a certain time period within the 7 year time frame of the end of the age or, The 70th week.

Some like to point out the whole of the end of the age is 'Tribulation' or, the Tribulation Period'. I do not see this anywhere in scripture.

What I do see see is,

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation, described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again."

Only after the A of D will there be 'great tribulation'. This time is set apart from the calamities and general disintegration of society recorded in verses 4-12 which occur before the A of D, by the qualifier "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again". In other words, even though it was bad before the A of D this time is set apart as being worse than any other pogrom as it's on a global scale.

You might think it's just for those in Judea as the warning by our Lord is for those in Judea to flee. But He says, "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now".  This literally means that nothing like it has occurred from the beginning until the moment GT manifests. So worse than Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc., and that only after the A of D.

When Jesus says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", He is referring to "at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." and not the days from the entire discourse.

So then, there is not a 7 year 'Tribulation'; there is an undetermined amount of time with a specific beginning, after a specific event, within the 70th week.

 

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

Well, to be clear, I meant that they saw the START of the tribulation in the First Century A.D.; however, the tribulation has continued now for almost 2,000 years. The END of the tribulation will be just prior to the Second Coming. Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse reveals this in the terminology used:

When Yeshua` used "ye," "you," and "your," He was speaking DIRECTLY TO those disciples seated around Him that day upon the Mount of Olives. When the pronouns changed, He was looking off into the future!

Ok I understand your position on this. 
thanks for clearing it up.

 

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28 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

I bring it up because they're proof of the start of the tribulation for me. Bill Clinton did a treaty with Rabin that was for 7 years in 1993 and everyone went nuts about it. It didn't phase me for two reasons, no temple, not even a tabernacle, and no Two Witnesses. If the whole world will rejoice at the death of the Two Witnesses, their arrival would on CNN every day for the next 3.5 years and 3.5 days! So, the Clinton treaty was nothing. Now, with Donald Trump being a friend of Israel, and the Sanhedrin actually calling on him to rebuild the temple, who knows what's coming, but there are a LOT of signs going on. But I do not believe Trump is the AC - the flaming left doesn't like him. I believe the AC will be a globalist since he'll take over the globe.

Pretty much the way I see it.

The Temple needs to be tied to the agreement in some form. As conjecture I don't see a Trump Plan being implemented. Agreed upon in principle but with the parties unable to abide by terms nor able to fulfill consideration.

Only when a strong local entity gives assurances using some means to force compliance, and provide protection from what is sure to be vigorous opposition to the agreement, will we see the Beast. Then the beginning of the week and the appearance of the witnesses, as you have said.

Just thinking about the acts of the witnesses is astounding. That we will see it all on our phones, all day everyday, even more so.

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6 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

Exactly! This is why, for me, the AC will be from the Middle East (Isaiah calls him the Assyrian). He'll be "one who understands" their situation - both sides as it were - and offer a solution that everyone will be like "DOH! Why didn't we think of that!" and accept his plan. The AC won't be an outsider like from Europe or America.

As for the Trump Plan, it's a business deal. What I mean is that in business, if the other side doesn't want to participate (Abbas) you ignore them. I believe (and I've not read it nor seen it) the Trump Plan will be one of "if you do THIS, then you will get what you want - a Palestinian state" but the "this" will be something they'll never do, so it's a moot point as it were. But even in that ploy to make peace, if he says to divide Israel, God will divide America. I've been compiling a list of cause & effect that leave zero chance of coincidences to reactions against those that come against Israel (Genesis 12:3).

Indeed. The Assyrian is often taken to mean from present day Syria but that's not necessary. Assyria was quite large at times through history and so this person could appear from Mesopotamia and still be considered Syrian. Or he was born there and raised in Iraq, Iran, Jordan, even Asia Minor. I agree the beast will have to be able to see both sides and be 'one of them'. The general distrust in the concerned parties for the West would preclude a Western beast in my mind.

I don't see any other way to 'peace' unless somehow Israel gives up land. They have offered it several times over the years and it's rejected every time. Maybe they give up a lot in exchange for the Temple?

Maybe as you indicate, it's all business, a cash deal, economic uplift, a nation and an autonomous identity. But then would the ceding of land in exchange for peace be enough for Israel? What would they get in exchange for having a sovereign hostile nation at their border? An abstract just would not suffice in my mind. In any case I'm convinced the final agreement will concern the Temple existing where the Jews say it has to stand; Temple Mount or City of David. Where it stands is not the point, that is stands again is.

 

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

With this I agree.

me too.    I would be more definite about the confirming the covenant with many for 7 years as being the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Nonetheless, the fundamental concept I agree with.

Edited by douggg
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12 hours ago, Abdicate said:

The arrival of the Two Witnesses along with the treaty of 7 years with the Antichrist and Israel kicks off the events of Revelation.

Yet the Two Witnesses may arrive some days just prior to mid-week.  Their appearance is what prompts the A/C to set up the A/D.  Their appearance coincides with the Gentiles trampling the city for 42 months.  Just following their deaths and going up into heaven the third and final woe will be coming soon.  We are now within the Bowl Judgments.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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13 minutes ago, douggg said:

the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Could you expand on this? I have not heard of this.

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8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Could you expand on this? I have not heard of this.

This is a wonderful question you have asked me.   Because it unlocks so much about the end times big picture.    One thing begets another thing, begets another thing, and so on.

 

It is a combination of a couple of passages.   One is a definite.   The other is by knowing what the Jews (Judaism) believe of a well known verse(s) that we Christian know to be different than their belief.

1. first the definite passage, you can count on it happening, in the future as the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.   Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

As the children of Israel were about to cross over the Jordan and possess the land of Israel, the promised land that God had said would be theirs forever - that second generation was assembled by Moses, which he gave a big speech to them, knowing he would not be going with them.

In that speech, Moses wanted to make sure that future generations of the children of Israel, long distance into the future forever, would not forget the ordeal they went to and the magnitude of the covenant God had made with them, as the land of Israel being theirs forever.

So Moses made it a law that all future leaders of Israel would make a similar speech to the nation of Israel (1) on a 7 year interval (2) on the feast of tabernacles (a fall feast) (3) from the place of God's choosing.

I have talked to the Jews about this subject and they consider the temple mount the place of God's choosing.    Hasn't been done in recent memory because of the situation with the muslims on the temple mount.

Application in the end times.   Following Gog/Magog, the little horn person coming from the EU, will enter the middle east with his EU military on the so called premise of being the peace keeper in the region (Daniel 8:25).    But the underlying reason and carrot for the ten EU leaders under him, will be to secure all the oil for the EU.

The little horn person coming with his EU military, having been staged in Greece (the area of one of the 4 breakup kingdoms) as a deterrent to Gog/Magog, will be the prince who shall come (from north and west of Israel, Daniel 8:9, with a strong army).

He will be a Jew.   The Jews, many of them believe the messianic age (with messiah) will follow Gog/Magog.    And all of them, who are knowledgeable about their own religion, believe that one of the jobs of the messiah is to fight the battles of God in defending Israel.

It will appear to them that the little horn person prior to Gog/Magog was going to fight in defending Israel.   Whether he actually does during Gog/Magog is questionable.   But the intent will not be.

So following Gog/Magog, the Jews, Israel, will think the person is their messiah.   Also because of the emergence of the false prophet around that time claiming to be Elijah, to say that he is.        So in that atmosphere the person will be anointed the King of Israel - officially making him the Antichrist.

So in the role of the leader of Israel, the King of Israel, perceived messiah - the Antichrist makes the big speech confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant regarding the land of Israel, that Moses required back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, from the temple mount, on the feast of tabernacles, addressing the nation of Israel, to re-establish the 7 year interval.      The speech and ceremony will be televised worldwide, imo.

At the same time, many in Christianity will fall away from believing that Jesus is the messiah, and will buy into the Antichrist as well.

continued in my next post....

Edited by douggg
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29 minutes ago, douggg said:

So in the role of the leader of Israel, the King of Israel, perceived messiah - the Antichrist makes the big speech confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant regarding the land of Israel, that Moses required back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, from the temple mount, on the feast of tabernacles, addressing the nation of Israel, to re-establish the 7 year interval.      The speech and ceremony will be televised worldwide, imo.

At the same time, many in Christianity will fall away from believing that Jesus is the messiah, and will buy into the Antichrist as well.

continued in my next post....

btw, I meant to comment that we know of the big central issue in the middle east is over who the land belongs to.   So the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant from the temple mount following Gog/Magog would fit in with finality of present circumstances.

2.  the second passage - Jeremiah 31:31-34.    The passage about the new covenant which we know to be the covenant in Jesus.

Jews, Judaism, can hardly agree that the new covenant is new because it points too much to Jesus.    So they contend new means "renewal" of the existing covenant - to them, the Mt. Sinai covenant.

So, when the Antichrist makes the big speech from the temple mount confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant, resetting the 7 year cycle, it will seem to them to be the "renewal" of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

From that point the world will be saying peace and safety, thinking they have entered the messianic age.   For a big part of the first half.

Edited by douggg
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My position remains with the focus on Jesus in Dan. 9:27. As stated, the covenant in v.27 is in reply to the same covenant in v. 4, NOT a treaty with the Antichrist. Consider the following:

There is a pattern of parallels in scripture and it can be seen in Daniel 9 - 

If one is reading the Psalms, they can be constructed in 4 different ways:

1. Synonymous parallels. ............A He maketh the storm a calm, A So that the waves thereof are still.

2. Antithetical parallels...............A The Lord knows the way of the righteous, B but the way of the wicked will perish.

3. Synthetic parallels...................Sometimes the second line simply adds to or completes the thought of the first line................A As a doe longs for running streams, B so longs my soul for you, my God. (Ps. 42:1) 

4. Alternating parallels...............As you become more aware of what to look for, you will often find two related ideas alternating with each other end extending through several verses. Psalm 37:3-5 provides an illustration.

A Trust in the Lord, and do good; B so you will dwell in the land, and enjoy security. A Take delight in the Lord, B and he will give you the desires of your heart. A Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, B and he will act.

Now let us do the same with Daniel 9:25-27-"25 Know therefore and understand, [That] from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, [There shall be] seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it [shall be] with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

A Messiah Prince to come

[1] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, [2] There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

B The city to be rebuilt..............[1] The street shall be built again, and the wall, [2] Even in troublesome times.

A Messiah to be cut off .............[2] And after the sixty-two weeks [1] Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

B Desolator Prince to destroy the city................[1] And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. [2] The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

A Messiah to terminate sacrifices......................[1] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many [2] for one week; [2] But in the middle of the week [1] He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

B The desolater prince to be destroyed.............[2] And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, [1] Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.

 

So if you could picture railroad tracks heading away and making a timeline, the focus changes from one rail to the other as you move forward through time. It is Jesus confirming the covenant- in the 70th week! Cut off at the mid point of it.

Edited by Uriah
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