7 YEAR TRIBULATION?

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Diaste.

1. No, the person who is "he" in verse 27 has the direct antecedent of "Messiah" in verse 26. "The prince that will come" is the OBJECT OF A PREPOSITION ("of") and does NOT have a part as the SUBJECT that performs the verbs of verse 27!

2. It makes WONDERFUL sense! What you don't understand is that the "abominations" of Matthew 23 give rise to the "desolation" of Matthew 23:38, and the "desolation" of Matthew 23:38 gives rise to the "abomination" of the Temple's destruction in Matthew 24!

Huh? Parsing does not mean anything past sentence construction and grammar. But you go...

Yeah, the "‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel" is telling us to look to Jesus hammering the false religion of the Jews in the Temple.

I don't understand how people arrive at these conclusions.

 

 

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I do not.

The Lord's covenant's are kept throughout generations and the Dan 9:27 is broken soon after it's confirmed.

The terms of the covenants are not the same: The last supper is the everlasting covenant of shed blood, and the Genesis covenant is the promise to make Abraham the father of many nations. The covenant with Abraham has everlasting terms of relationship and Abraham will always be the Father of many nations and many kings.

Both are ongoing and only end when the need for them ends; at such a time when people no longer multiply and when the need for the shed blood of Jesus for covering sin is no longer needed. Both go on forever where the Dan 9:27 covenant does not as it's limited to 7 years.

Hi Diaste

Last few things (I think) from Daniel.

Remember those 6 things posted earlier?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. 

Do you believe that this prophecy was fulfilled or failed? According to v.24 ALL of must have happened WITHIN the -70- weeks. Yet Jesus came AFTER the 69 weeks. We see things here that were accomplished by Jesus...on the cross. I, for one, believe He DID accomplish ALL of these within the 70 weeks. You see it otherwise?

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Hi Diaste

Last few things (I think) from Daniel.

Remember those 6 things posted earlier?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. 

Do you believe that this prophecy was fulfilled or failed? According to v.24 ALL of must have happened WITHIN the -70- weeks. Yet Jesus came AFTER the 69 weeks. We see things here that were accomplished by Jesus...on the cross. I, for one, believe He DID accomplish ALL of these within the 70 weeks. You see it otherwise?

Prophecy:  Fulfilled, Failed or is still Future.

This prophecy is for Daniel's People to fulfill or accomplish.  And if Prophecy, it cannot fail.  So it is either fully fulfilled, or fully all in the future.  At the very last minute of the very last hour of the very last day it will be fulfilled.  Zech 12:10,11.  It is Israel's Salvation.  They will see Him and be delivered.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Prophecy:  Fulfilled, Failed or is still Future.

This prophecy is for Daniel's People to fulfill or accomplish.  And if Prophecy, it cannot fail.  So it is either fully fulfilled, or fully all in the future.  At the very last minute of the very last hour of the very last day it will be fulfilled.  Zech 12:10,11.  It is Israel's Salvation.  They will see Him and be delivered.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Marv

You have introduced a different prophecy that isn't the focus of the conversation. The one in Daniel 9 contains things fulfilled by JESUS....ON THE CROSS. Perhaps you deny this? And again, verse 24 dictates that they all would be fulfilled WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS.......NOT AFTER them.

[Montana Marv]

22 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marv

You have introduced a different prophecy that isn't the focus of the conversation. The one in Daniel 9 contains things fulfilled by JESUS....ON THE CROSS. Perhaps you deny this? And again, verse 24 dictates that they all would be fulfilled WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS.......NOT AFTER them.

Then the 70th Week is not completed. When will Daniels people accept these six tasks and receive their Salvation.

When did you receive the benefits of the six tasks.

The prophecy is about when Daniels people are going to receive their Salvation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Huh? Parsing does not mean anything past sentence construction and grammar. But you go...

Yeah, the "‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel" is telling us to look to Jesus hammering the false religion of the Jews in the Temple.

I don't understand how people arrive at these conclusions.

Shalom, Diaste.

Just remember; YOU asked (with a "Huh?"). I used the sentence construction and grammar of the English translations, but formally, we should be looking at the grammar of the HEBREW language. (Something that is GROSSLY overlooked by Gentile Christians, btw.)

1. The second noun in a noun construct state CANNOT have the part of the subject in a Hebrew sentence! And, such a phrase used in verse 26 IS a noun construct state: `am nagiyd, translated as "[the] people of-[the]-prince." Thus, the "nagiyd," the "prince," cannot be the subject of the sentence.

2. In the Hebrew text, the sentence doesn't end at the end of verse 26 but flows into verse 27. Furthermore, the verbs in verse 27 have no close subject associated with them, which is why they are translated into English with the singular, masculine pronoun "he."

3. Going back into verse 26, the closest singular, masculine noun that may be associated with these singular, masculine verbs in verse 27 that may be a subject is "maashiyach," translated as "Messiah."

The conclusion is then that "maashiyach" is the subject of the verbs in verse 27, "v-higbiyr," "yashbiyt," and the participle "m-shomeem."

***

Matthew 24:15-20 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of (Greek: rheethen) by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mark 13:14-18 (KJV)

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of (Greek: rheethen) by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 

and the corollary in Luke 21,

Luke 21:20-21 (KJV)

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with (surrounded by) armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh (soon). 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The word "rheethen" is a form of "rheoo" or "ereoo":

2046 ereoo (er-eh'-o). Probably a fuller form of rheoo; an alternate for epoo in certain tenses; to utter, i.e. Speak or say
-- call, say, speak (of), tell.

(denoting speech in progress), (a) I say, speak; I mean, mention, tell, (b) I call, name, especially in the pass., (c) I tell, command.

4483 rheoo (hreh'-o). For certain tenses of which a prolonged form ereoo (er-eh'-o) is used; and both as alternate for epoo; perhaps akin (or identical) with rheoo (through the idea of pouring forth); to utter, i.e. Speak or say -- command, make, say, speak (of). Compare legoo.

In NONE of this is the translation to be "described." The best translation for this word should be "mentioned."

So, let's correct your comment:

Yeah, the "‘the abomination of desolation,’ mentioned by the prophet Daniel" is telling us to look to Jesus hammering the false religion of the Jews in the Temple.

I don't understand how people arrive at these conclusions.

Next, understand that the phrase "the <noun-1> of <noun-2>" can be re-written in English as "<noun-2>'s <noun-1>." So, we can turn "the hat of Robert" into "Robert's hat." "Of" usually shows possession or origin.

Therefore, "the abomination of desolation" may be re-written as "desolation's abomination," and we may want to include the definite article to show that we are referring to a particular desolation: "the desolation's abomination." If this is showing the ORIGIN of the abomination, coming from the desolation (and I believe it can be shown to be just that), then "the desolation" comes FIRST! After this, "the desolation" LEADS TO or PRODUCES the "abomination" SECOND!

Yeshua`s pronouncement of "desolation" upon the Jews and Jerusalem (Matthew 23:38) came just prior to Yeshua`s death, burial and resurrection. Forty years later (a time of testing, a time for them to repent), the CONSEQUENCES of that "desolation" produced the "abomination" of the destruction of the Temple and ultimately the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersement of the Jews by the Romans.

THIS is what Yeshua` was warning against and predicting would happen in His disciples' near future in Matthew 24!

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Then the 70th Week is not completed. When will Daniels people accept these six tasks and receive their Salvation.

When did you receive the benefits of the six tasks.

The prophecy is about when Daniels people are going to receive their Salvation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

There are six items listed in that prophecy that must take place. Which one of the six is it that you are referring to?

Edited August 19, 2019 by Uriah

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Just remember; YOU asked (with a "Huh?"). I used the sentence construction and grammar of the English translations, but formally, we should be looking at the grammar of the HEBREW language. (Something that is GROSSLY overlooked by Gentile Christians, btw.)

1. The second noun in a noun construct state CANNOT have the part of the subject in a Hebrew sentence! And, such a phrase used in verse 26 IS a noun construct state: `am nagiyd, translated as "[the] people of-[the]-prince." Thus, the "nagiyd," the "prince," cannot be the subject of the sentence.

2. In the Hebrew text, the sentence doesn't end at the end of verse 26 but flows into verse 27. Furthermore, the verbs in verse 27 have no close subject associated with them, which is why they are translated into English with the singular, masculine pronoun "he."

3. Going back into verse 26, the closest singular, masculine noun that may be associated with these singular, masculine verbs in verse 27 that may be a subject is "maashiyach," translated as "Messiah."

The conclusion is then that "maashiyach" is the subject of the verbs in verse 27, "v-higbiyr," "yashbiyt," and the participle "m-shomeem."

***

Matthew 24:15-20 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of (Greek: rheethen) by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mark 13:14-18 (KJV)

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of (Greek: rheethen) by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 

and the corollary in Luke 21,

Luke 21:20-21 (KJV)

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with (surrounded by) armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh (soon). 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The word "rheethen" is a form of "rheoo" or "ereoo":

2046 ereoo (er-eh'-o). Probably a fuller form of rheoo; an alternate for epoo in certain tenses; to utter, i.e. Speak or say
-- call, say, speak (of), tell.

(denoting speech in progress), (a) I say, speak; I mean, mention, tell, (b) I call, name, especially in the pass., (c) I tell, command.

4483 rheoo (hreh'-o). For certain tenses of which a prolonged form ereoo (er-eh'-o) is used; and both as alternate for epoo; perhaps akin (or identical) with rheoo (through the idea of pouring forth); to utter, i.e. Speak or say -- command, make, say, speak (of). Compare legoo.

In NONE of this is the translation to be "described." The best translation for this word should be "mentioned."

So, let's correct your comment:

Yeah, the "‘the abomination of desolation,’ mentioned by the prophet Daniel" is telling us to look to Jesus hammering the false religion of the Jews in the Temple.

I don't understand how people arrive at these conclusions.

Next, understand that the phrase "the <noun-1> of <noun-2>" can be re-written in English as "<noun-2>'s <noun-1>." So, we can turn "the hat of Robert" into "Robert's hat." "Of" usually shows possession or origin.

Therefore, "the abomination of desolation" may be re-written as "desolation's abomination," and we may want to include the definite article to show that we are referring to a particular desolation: "the desolation's abomination." If this is showing the ORIGIN of the abomination, coming from the desolation (and I believe it can be shown to be just that), then "the desolation" comes FIRST! After this, "the desolation" LEADS TO or PRODUCES the "abomination" SECOND!

Yeshua`s pronouncement of "desolation" upon the Jews and Jerusalem (Matthew 23:38) came just prior to Yeshua`s death, burial and resurrection. Forty years later (a time of testing, a time for them to repent), the CONSEQUENCES of that "desolation" produced the "abomination" of the destruction of the Temple and ultimately the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersement of the Jews by the Romans.

THIS is what Yeshua` was warning against and predicting would happen in His disciples' near future in Matthew 24!

Exactly why I stand by my previous statements.

You'll see. We all will.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Diaste

Last few things (I think) from Daniel.

Remember those 6 things posted earlier?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. 

Do you believe that this prophecy was fulfilled or failed? According to v.24 ALL of must have happened WITHIN the -70- weeks. Yet Jesus came AFTER the 69 weeks. We see things here that were accomplished by Jesus...on the cross. I, for one, believe He DID accomplish ALL of these within the 70 weeks. You see it otherwise?

I don't think I can comment accurately on this. I have heard some things but do have it sussed out. 

My informal position is that the above tasks were to be completed by Israel and they did not do as they should (like most of us).

This is the part I really don't understand:

"The prophetic timeline was suspended at 69 weeks leaving a gap of indeterminate length before the final week begins and is fulfilled." 

I don't see any lengthy gap in the prophecy of Dan 9:25-27,  but okay, there it is I guess.

So then the Jews are not going to fulfill their appointment and the last week is used to bring them around to the true Savior. In that case Jesus stands in the gap and has brought that which the people of God were supposed to but did not (like most of us). 

I know that's not the best explanation but I just don't know. Obviously Jesus has not come back so much is left to fulfill. Really I'm just watching for His return.

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't think I can comment accurately on this. I have heard some things but do have it sussed out. 

My informal position is that the above tasks were to be completed by Israel and they did not do as they should (like most of us).

This is the part I really don't understand:

"The prophetic timeline was suspended at 69 weeks leaving a gap of indeterminate length before the final week begins and is fulfilled." 

I don't see any lengthy gap in the prophecy of Dan 9:25-27,  but okay, there it is I guess.

So then the Jews are not going to fulfill their appointment and the last week is used to bring them around to the true Savior. In that case Jesus stands in the gap and has brought that which the people of God were supposed to but did not (like most of us). 

I know that's not the best explanation but I just don't know. Obviously Jesus has not come back so much is left to fulfill. Really I'm just watching for His return.

What part(s) do you see as having to be fulfilled by Israel?