7 YEAR TRIBULATION?

[Uriah]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Just remember; YOU asked (with a "Huh?"). I used the sentence construction and grammar of the English translations, but formally, we should be looking at the grammar of the HEBREW language. (Something that is GROSSLY overlooked by Gentile Christians, btw.)

1. The second noun in a noun construct state CANNOT have the part of the subject in a Hebrew sentence! And, such a phrase used in verse 26 IS a noun construct state: `am nagiyd, translated as "[the] people of-[the]-prince." Thus, the "nagiyd," the "prince," cannot be the subject of the sentence.

2. In the Hebrew text, the sentence doesn't end at the end of verse 26 but flows into verse 27. Furthermore, the verbs in verse 27 have no close subject associated with them, which is why they are translated into English with the singular, masculine pronoun "he."

3. Going back into verse 26, the closest singular, masculine noun that may be associated with these singular, masculine verbs in verse 27 that may be a subject is "maashiyach," translated as "Messiah."

The conclusion is then that "maashiyach" is the subject of the verbs in verse 27, "v-higbiyr," "yashbiyt," and the participle "m-shomeem."

***

Matthew 24:15-20 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of (Greek: rheethen) by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mark 13:14-18 (KJV)

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of (Greek: rheethen) by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 

and the corollary in Luke 21,

Luke 21:20-21 (KJV)

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with (surrounded by) armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh (soon). 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The word "rheethen" is a form of "rheoo" or "ereoo":

2046 ereoo (er-eh'-o). Probably a fuller form of rheoo; an alternate for epoo in certain tenses; to utter, i.e. Speak or say
-- call, say, speak (of), tell.

(denoting speech in progress), (a) I say, speak; I mean, mention, tell, (b) I call, name, especially in the pass., (c) I tell, command.

4483 rheoo (hreh'-o). For certain tenses of which a prolonged form ereoo (er-eh'-o) is used; and both as alternate for epoo; perhaps akin (or identical) with rheoo (through the idea of pouring forth); to utter, i.e. Speak or say -- command, make, say, speak (of). Compare legoo.

In NONE of this is the translation to be "described." The best translation for this word should be "mentioned."

So, let's correct your comment:

Yeah, the "‘the abomination of desolation,’ mentioned by the prophet Daniel" is telling us to look to Jesus hammering the false religion of the Jews in the Temple.

I don't understand how people arrive at these conclusions.

Next, understand that the phrase "the <noun-1> of <noun-2>" can be re-written in English as "<noun-2>'s <noun-1>." So, we can turn "the hat of Robert" into "Robert's hat." "Of" usually shows possession or origin.

Therefore, "the abomination of desolation" may be re-written as "desolation's abomination," and we may want to include the definite article to show that we are referring to a particular desolation: "the desolation's abomination." If this is showing the ORIGIN of the abomination, coming from the desolation (and I believe it can be shown to be just that), then "the desolation" comes FIRST! After this, "the desolation" LEADS TO or PRODUCES the "abomination" SECOND!

Yeshua`s pronouncement of "desolation" upon the Jews and Jerusalem (Matthew 23:38) came just prior to Yeshua`s death, burial and resurrection. Forty years later (a time of testing, a time for them to repent), the CONSEQUENCES of that "desolation" produced the "abomination" of the destruction of the Temple and ultimately the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersement of the Jews by the Romans.

THIS is what Yeshua` was warning against and predicting would happen in His disciples' near future in Matthew 24!

Retro

What was the abomination that was set up by the Romans?

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't think I can comment accurately on this. I have heard some things but do have it sussed out. 

My informal position is that the above tasks were to be completed by Israel and they did not do as they should (like most of us).

This is the part I really don't understand:

"The prophetic timeline was suspended at 69 weeks leaving a gap of indeterminate length before the final week begins and is fulfilled." 

I don't see any lengthy gap in the prophecy of Dan 9:25-27,  but okay, there it is I guess.

So then the Jews are not going to fulfill their appointment and the last week is used to bring them around to the true Savior. In that case Jesus stands in the gap and has brought that which the people of God were supposed to but did not (like most of us). 

I know that's not the best explanation but I just don't know. Obviously Jesus has not come back so much is left to fulfill. Really I'm just watching for His return.

Shalom, Diaste.

Okay. I can't help you with the quote you made: "The prophetic timeline was suspended at 69 weeks leaving a gap of indeterminate length before the final week begins and is fulfilled." I don't believe that nor do I buy into it. However, I CAN give you the reason for a gap between 69.5 and the last 0.5 weeks (between the 486.5 years and the final 3.5 years):

Just follow what Yeshua` said in Matthew 23:37-39:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

And, His internal quote from Psalm 118:26 is the Hebrew sentence, "Baaruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." "Welcome, Comer in the name (on the authority) of YHWH."

Now, Uriah said that he believed that Yeshua` fulfilled the six tasks in Daniel 9:24. He's NOT really that far off, because it SHALL be the Messiah's lead that brings these six things to reality in the lives of the children of Israel. As I said, during His First Coming (His First Advent), He DID set up the "template" for the fulfillment of those six tasks. He "led the way," so to speak, for the rest of the Jews and the children of Israel. He had to go to the Cross and do what only He could do as the Son of God. This made it possible for ALL to be justified, including the children of Israel. It made it possible for any who would "make His soul an offering for sin" to be called "the righteousness of God" in the Messiah.

However, only a "remnant" of the children of Israel accepted Yeshua` as God's Messiah then, and, although the numbers are steadily growing, sometimes in leaps and bounds, only a fraction of the Jews accept Him as God's Messiah now. Through such organized works as Jews for Jesus and the Messianic Jews, they ARE coming to know Him today! It could still take days, months, or YEARS before they are willing to drop their instinctive and taught adversion to Yeshua` but it IS happening, just not as quickly as some would like!

When Yeshua` pronounced the words that were said in verse 38 above, fulfilling part of the prediction of Gavri'el in Daniel 9:27, THAT put the 70th Seven "on hold" and introduced the "gap" in which we are living today. When He returns, He will pick up where He left off, and again, He will offer His people the Kingdom. THIS TIME, they'll accept Him. What happens before and after that point is unclear, but this will be their turning point.

If one wants to see the Lord's SOON return, one must do as Paul directed in Romans 11:

Romans 11:25-36 (KJV)

 

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (God doesn't change His mind about His gifts or calling). 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Montana Marv believes this will happen in a day, the Day when Yeshua` returns; however, we know that God works right now through the Messiah's "BODY." And, we must do what we can to prepare their hearts to accept Him in that Day, if not before.

We Gentile believers are the "tag-alongs," so to speak, in God's program for His Kingdom here on earth. We're not the center of all His attention. We're PERIPHERAL in the story of history! Just as the people of the Dark Ages had to admit that the earth is not the center of the Solar System, we must admit that Gentile believers are not the center of God's Kingdom. We ARE to be some of His subjects and we can be His slaves now, but the REAL action will begin when the Lord Yeshua` the Messiah returns, having been given His Kingdom to establish here on this earth. If you think that God can do wonderful things for those who accept Him as their Savior and Lord now, you "ain't seen NUTHIN, YET," when HE BRINGS THE DEAD BACK TO LIFE!

I've been listening to a discussion (on Chris Fabry Live on Moody Radio, I think?) as to whether one should be buried or cremated at death. It doesn't really matter; the Resurrection will be an Act of Creation! Whether the dead have disintegrated to atoms in a fire, or fallen apart into atoms in a grave, God must put all the pieces (creating some of the pieces from atoms) back together again as His GREAT, PERFECT MEMORY remembers us, and then TRANSFORM US into the glowing, spiritual (super-strong) bodies we shall become!

 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Uriah said:

What part(s) do you see as having to be fulfilled by Israel?

That would be the problem. From what I have heard none of it has. I guess I can see that just looking at the evidence and comparing. Again, I have no real insight on this, but it would seem the failure to accomplish is the reason we are heading toward correction. 

[Uriah]

1 minute ago, Diaste said:

That would be the problem. From what I have heard none of it has. I guess I can see that just looking at the evidence and comparing. Again, I have no real insight on this, but it would seem the failure to accomplish is the reason we are heading toward correction. 

Thanks bro. I understand that.

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Okay. I can't help you with the quote you made: "The prophetic timeline was suspended at 69 weeks leaving a gap of indeterminate length before the final week begins and is fulfilled." I don't believe that nor do I buy into it. However, I CAN give you the reason for a gap between 69.5 and the last 0.5 weeks (between the 486.5 years and the final 3.5 years):

Just follow what Yeshua` said in Matthew 23:37-39:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

And, His internal quote from Psalm 118:26 is the Hebrew sentence, "Baaruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." "Welcome, Comer in the name (on the authority) of YHWH."

Now, Uriah said that he believed that Yeshua` fulfilled the six tasks in Daniel 9:24. He's NOT really that far off, because it SHALL be the Messiah's lead that brings these six things to reality in the lives of the children of Israel. As I said, during His First Coming (His First Advent), He DID set up the "template" for the fulfillment of those six tasks. He "led the way," so to speak, for the rest of the Jews and the children of Israel. He had to go to the Cross and do what only He could do as the Son of God. This made it possible for ALL to be justified, including the children of Israel. It made it possible for any who would "make His soul an offering for sin" to be called "the righteousness of God" in the Messiah.

However, only a "remnant" of the children of Israel accepted Yeshua` as God's Messiah then, and, although the numbers are steadily growing, sometimes in leaps and bounds, only a fraction of the Jews accept Him as God's Messiah now. Through such organized works as Jews for Jesus and the Messianic Jews, they ARE coming to know Him today! It could still take days, months, or YEARS before they are willing to drop their instinctive and taught adversion to Yeshua` but it IS happening, just not as quickly as some would like!

When Yeshua` pronounced the words that were said in verse 38 above, fulfilling part of the prediction of Gavri'el in Daniel 9:27, THAT put the 70th Seven "on hold" and introduced the "gap" in which we are living today. When He returns, He will pick up where He left off, and again, He will offer His people the Kingdom. THIS TIME, they'll accept Him. What happens before and after that point is unclear, but this will be their turning point.

If one wants to see the Lord's SOON return, one must do as Paul directed in Romans 11:

Romans 11:25-36 (KJV)

 

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (God doesn't change His mind about His gifts or calling). 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Montana Marv believes this will happen in a day, the Day when Yeshua` returns; however, we know that God works right now through the Messiah's "BODY." And, we must do what we can to prepare their hearts to accept Him in that Day, if not before.

We Gentile believers are the "tag-alongs," so to speak, in God's program for His Kingdom here on earth. We're not the center of all His attention. We're PERIPHERAL in the story of history! Just as the people of the Dark Ages had to admit that the earth is not the center of the Solar System, we must admit that Gentile believers are not the center of God's Kingdom. We ARE to be some of His subjects and we can be His slaves now, but the REAL action will begin when the Lord Yeshua` the Messiah returns, having been given His Kingdom to establish here on this earth. If you think that God can do wonderful things for those who accept Him as their Savior and Lord now, you "ain't seen NUTHIN, YET," when HE BRINGS THE DEAD BACK TO LIFE!

I've been listening to a discussion (on Chris Fabry Live on Moody Radio, I think?) as to whether one should be buried or cremated at death. It doesn't really matter; the Resurrection will be an Act of Creation! Whether the dead have disintegrated to atoms in a fire, or fallen apart into atoms in a grave, God must put all the pieces (creating some of the pieces from atoms) back together again as His GREAT, PERFECT MEMORY remembers us, and then TRANSFORM US into the glowing, spiritual (super-strong) bodies we shall become!

 

Agreed. This is the conclusion I have heard from other sources as well. It's obvious the end of the age has not occurred or we would be living in the Millennial Kingdom or passed into Eternity by now. So a gap in the prophetic timeline exists and I am of the opinion that the tasks were not completed hence, Jesus.

[Diaste]

13 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Thanks bro. I understand that.

I see I didn't answer that correctly.  You asked 'What parts had to be fulfilled by Israel', 'All of them' is the answer I should have given. 

[Uriah]

9 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I see I didn't answer that correctly.  You asked 'What parts had to be fulfilled by Israel', 'All of them' is the answer I should have given. 

It truly appears to me that if you take then one by one, ONLY Jesus COULD fulfill them.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

It truly appears to me that if you take then one by one, ONLY Jesus COULD fulfill them.

Shalom, Uriah.

YES!!! HOWEVER, He hasn't yet fulfilled them all! You're not wrong; He just didn't fulfill them completely during His First Advent. He SHALL in His Second Advent! Remember the FIRST words of Gavri'el:

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (the children of Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem),
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy.

Yeshua` started the work, but it won't be finished until He returns and these goals are accomplished in Daniel's and Yeshua`s people, the children of Israel, particularly those of His own tribe, Yhudah called Yhudiym or "Jews," and in His holy city, Yerushalayim or "Jerusalem!" It's all a matter of TIMING! We don't diminish the AMAZING work that Yeshua` did for us all on the Cross; however, if you think that was something wonderful, just WAIT until you see what He does when He returns! "You ain't seen NUTHIN', yet!" In Paul's words,

Romans 11:11-28 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit (the sheaf offering = the Messiah) be holy, the lump (the whole harvest = the whole nation) is also holy: and if the root (the rootstock = the Messiah) be holy, so are the branches (whether natural or grafts = the whole Kingdom).

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well (Okay); because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches (as a GROUP), take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel):

27 For this is my covenant (promise) unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Even the Jews that we see today are great-great-great- ... -grandchildren of the Patriarchs, and children of Israel! FAMILY IS EVERYTHING! These are PHYSICAL RELATIVES to Yeshua` the Messiah! Nieces, nephews, cousins, HE KNOWS THEM ALL! Would you leave YOUR grandchildren out of your will? Neither will the Messiah.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Retrobyter

[Uriah]

Hey guys,

I don't how Israel was supposed to fulfill those six things listed by Gabriel. Maybe someone will show the scriptures that show this. As I see it:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city-  Plainly states a definite and  finite time period is allotted for what follows 

(1) to finish the transgression, and- ISRAEL CAN DO THIS? Heb 9:15- And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. More can be said, but WOW! How could ANYONE but Jesus do this?
(2) to make an end of sins, and-And where does it say ISRAEL does this?  Heb 10:4-11- "sins...remember no more" That's the N.T.-JESUS!
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and-Animal sacrifices won't work, Heb 2: "our merciful high priest made reconciliation for the sins of the people" and it was ONCE for ALL
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and-What kind of righteousness can be provided by Israel? It was done away with!! Rom 3:21-26- Even the righteousness of GOD..through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus -NOT ISRAEL
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and - John 6:27- ..the Son of Man...which God the father hath sealed"
(6) to anoint the most Holy. -Acts 4:27, 10 :38- God anointed Jesus..calls Him the "Holy One" How could THIS be Israel?

 

These things are ALL fulfilled in our savior-Jesus! He did what Israel could NEVER do! They MUST be accomplished on the CROSS and it MUST happen within a 70 week time period. The Messiah came AFTER the 69th week!  He did these things in the middle of the 70th week.

 

[Montana Marv]

16 minutes ago, Uriah said:

I don't how Israel was supposed to fulfill those six things listed by Gabriel. Maybe someone will show the scriptures that show this. As I see it:

Jer 31:33 -  This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. i will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.  I will be their God and they will be my people.  34b - For I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more.

Zech  8: 6 - This is what the Lord Almighty says, It may seem marvelous to the remnant of this people at that time, but will it seem marvelous to me...  9:16 - The Lord their God will save them on that day.

Zeph 3:13 - The remnant of Israel will do no wrong, they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths.  20b - I will restore your fortunes before your very eyes.

43 minutes ago, Uriah said:

These things are ALL fulfilled in our savior-Jesus! He did what Israel could NEVER do! They MUST be accomplished on the CROSS and it MUST happen within a 70 week time period. The Messiah came AFTER the 69th week!  He did these things in the middle of the 70th week.

70 Sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city TO.  It takes effort for someone to do these things.  Christ forgave everything on that day.

In Christ

Montana Marv