7 YEAR TRIBULATION?

[Uriah]

I just want to make sure I am on record, to be clear, that the coming tribulation/great tribulation is NOT 7 yrs. long. It is just a bit over 42 months long. Furthermore, all of those catastrophic judgments take place at the last handful of months!

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

True.

Thanks Sonshine!...God (will) bless you!

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Ok when did they see the abomination in the Holy Place...and immediately flee? 

Shalom, Uriah.

That's not in recorded history (to my knowledge) because the numbers were relatively few, but that would have occurred in 66-69 A.D. It happened just prior to the First Jewish-Roman War. The majority of the Jews took up arms and attempted to fight against the Romans because they desecrated the Temple. The Roman Siege against Jerusalem occurred in 69 A.D. That IS recorded by the historian Josephus, and he records that it was a FAILED attempt and the Temple was burned and torn down, as Yeshua` predicted.

THAT'S when the first persecution began. THAT'S when family members turned on each other in an attempt to gain deferential treatment for turning in one of Rome's enemies.

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

That's not in recorded history (to my knowledge) because the numbers were relatively few, but that would have occurred in 66-69 A.D. It happened just prior to the First Jewish-Roman War. The majority of the Jews took up arms and attempted to fight against the Romans because they desecrated the Temple. The Roman Siege against Jerusalem occurred in 69 A.D. That IS recorded by the historian Josephus, and he records that it was a FAILED attempt and the Temple was burned and torn down, as Yeshua` predicted.

THAT'S when the first persecution began. THAT'S when family members turned on each other in an attempt to gain deferential treatment for turning in one of Rome's enemies.

Hi Retro

Maybe I am not following it quite right so far but it seems like you have explained Jesus teaching what the abomination of desolation is (not in what we understand to be the "Holy Place") but nobody fled from it and the emergency they would have needed to flee from wasn't until decades later.

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Maybe I am not following it quite right so far but it seems like you have explained Jesus teaching what the abomination of desolation is (not in what we understand to be the "Holy Place") but nobody fled from it and the emergency they would have needed to flee from wasn't until decades later.

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

Nope, you're not following it quite right. Here's the timeline:

Yeshua` pronounced the Jews (particularly of Jerusalem) "desolate."
THEN, Yeshua` foretold about the coming tribulation (not 2000+ years in the future but 40 years in the future).
THEN, Yeshua` was cut off in the middle of the "Week" after the 7 "Weeks" and the 62 "Weeks." He was cut off "but not for Himself" and being so cut off, He caused "the sacrifice and the oblation (gift) to cease." That caused the Temple to be reduced in efficacy for the Ultimate Sacrifice was made. (According to tradition, it was at that time that the "scarlet thread" ceased being turned white with the acceptance of the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement.)
Almost forty years later, between 66 and 69 A.D., the Romans came to squelch what they perceived as a rebellion against Rome, and set up the Roman eagle standard in the Holy Place of the Temple, desecrating the Temple. ***(THIS is what the BELIEVING Jews saw in their time, and fled as ordered.)***
The Siege of Jerusalem took place in 70 A.D. and lasted about 4 months from the 14th of April to the 8th of September.
The Romans, under Titus, came in and conquered Jerusalem and in their reckless zeal, they burned the Temple.
Because the gold melted in the heat of the fire and ran between the stones of the building, the Romans dismantled the Temple to get to the gold and left "not one stone upon another."
It was AFTER this happened that the Diaspora began as the Romans led away captives (after killing many with the sword) into all the various countries under the Roman Empire. It was at this time that the First Persecution began and family members betrayed one another to save their own skins.

These points can either be substantiated in history and/or by the Scriptures. There's absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for taking these matters into the future!

The ONLY point that Yeshua` made that is about the future is His Second Coming:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sun being darkened, the moon not giving its light, and the stars (meteorites) falling from the sky, and the powers of the skies (weather) being shaken because of these events, have NOT happened, yet. (Therefore, full preterism's interpretation of Yeshua`s words are wrong.)

Therefore, "the tribulation of those days" has not ended, yet.

Now, making this last statement still allows for the 7-year or the 42-month viewpoints, but one also cannot dismiss verses 9-10!

Matthew 24:9-10 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Thus, the BEGINNING of that "tribulation" to which Yeshua` was referring began in the FIRST CENTURY A.D!

[Justin Adams]

Josephus seems to indicate that the Priests etc., set fire to the Temple - inside it. And there was an 'every man for himself' sort of riot. Many were thrown down from high places, not by Romans, but by citizens.

Additional note: for the Israelis, the 'tribulation' began a long time ago and they thought of the scattering and loss of the ten tribes as a tribulation in itself. Even while 'peaceful' in Jerusalem, many held to the idea that the coming Messiah would end their tribulations. They were under Roman rule, so none of them ever thought that their particular tribulation was over. Then it got far worse... as stated above.

The sacking of Jerusalem was seen by many as 'the great tribulation'.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Justin Adams

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

Nope, you're not following it quite right. Here's the timeline:

Yeshua` pronounced the Jews (particularly of Jerusalem) "desolate."
THEN, Yeshua` foretold about the coming tribulation (not 2000+ years in the future but 40 years in the future).
THEN, Yeshua` was cut off in the middle of the "Week" after the 7 "Weeks" and the 62 "Weeks." He was cut off "but not for Himself" and being so cut off, He caused "the sacrifice and the oblation (gift) to cease." That caused the Temple to be reduced in efficacy for the Ultimate Sacrifice was made. (According to tradition, it was at that time that the "scarlet thread" ceased being turned white with the acceptance of the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement.)
 

Quote

Almost forty years later, between 66 and 69 A.D., the Romans came to squelch what they perceived as a rebellion against Rome, and set up the Roman eagle standard in the Holy Place of the Temple, desecrating the Temple. ***(THIS is what the BELIEVING Jews saw in their time, and fled as ordered.)***

I haven't seen any proof of this. Where do you get this info? For such a thing to happen, who would "see" it but Romans, not what Jesus said.

 

Quote

The Siege of Jerusalem took place in 70 A.D. and lasted about 4 months from the 14th of April to the 8th of September.

This needs to be cleared up. My Jewish acquaintances mourn on the tish b' Av  (9th of Av). For centuries they have remembered this date as the date of the destruction of the Temple-by the Babylonians AND the Romans. Occurs late July, 25th-August first week, changes annually for our calendar. etc. 

The Romans, under Titus, came in and conquered Jerusalem and in their reckless zeal, they burned the Temple.
Because the gold melted in the heat of the fire and ran between the stones of the building, the Romans dismantled the Temple to get to the gold and left "not one stone upon another."
It was AFTER this happened that the Diaspora began as the Romans led away captives (after killing many with the sword) into all the various countries under the Roman Empire. It was at this time that the First Persecution began and family members betrayed one another to save their own skins.

These points can either be substantiated in history and/or by the Scriptures. There's absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for taking these matters into the future!

The ONLY point that Yeshua` made that is about the future is His Second Coming:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sun being darkened, the moon not giving its light, and the stars (meteorites) falling from the sky, and the powers of the skies (weather) being shaken because of these events, have NOT happened, yet. (Therefore, full preterism's interpretation of Yeshua`s words are wrong.)

Therefore, "the tribulation of those days" has not ended, yet.

Now, making this last statement still allows for the 7-year or the 42-month viewpoints, but one also cannot dismiss verses 9-10!

Matthew 24:9-10 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Thus, the BEGINNING of that "tribulation" to which Yeshua` was referring began in the FIRST CENTURY A.D!

Hi Retro

So I am still processing your view, but there a couple of points above that aren't clear. Especially the Roman standard thing. Think of it, it was something that should have made them flee immediately. They did not. The bishop of the city and others prayed and fasted for four days and deliberated before that. Then the fled. No Romans were even at the wall at this time. They had temporarily drawn back. Nothing in the Holy Place for some time after that even if your scenario is verified. No Jesus DID ALSO say that when you see armies ...flee. THAT fits.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Josephus seems to indicate that the Priests etc., set fire to the Temple - inside it. And there was an 'every man for himself' sort of riot. Many were thrown down from high places, not by Romans, but by citizens.

Additional note: for the Israelis, the 'tribulation' began a long time ago and they thought of the scattering and loss of the ten tribes as a tribulation in itself. Even while 'peaceful' in Jerusalem, many held to the idea that the coming Messiah would end their tribulations. They were under Roman rule, so none of them ever thought that their particular tribulation was over. Then it got far worse... as stated above.

The sacking of Jerusalem was seen by many as 'the great tribulation'.

Shabbat shalom, Justin Adams.

YES! He said that the Jews started the fires in the NW entrance to the Temple, and it was a time of TOTAL chaos!

Regarding your comment "The sacking of Jerusalem was seen by many as 'the great tribulation'," that's very true, and it hasn't ended, YET! That same LONG NIGHT of tribulation has been a CONTINUAL ASSAULT upon the children of Israel (even if justly so); however, the Lord also promised,

Matthew 24:22 (KJV)

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is not a shortening of the LENGTH OF TIME that the tribulation is experienced, it's a shortening of the DAYS OF TRIBULATION within that length of time. God gave them temporary reprieves so as to keep the family of Israel, the chosen race, the "elect," alive as they suffer the pressures they chose for themselves. So separated were these remaining days of tribulation from each other that we have given them independent names, such as "persecutions," "inquisitions," "purges," "pogroms," the "Holocaust," "terrorism," etc.

It didn't end in the First Century A.D.; it's still happening today and shall happen until the Lord returns.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Retrobyter
correction in the info

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

So I am still processing your view, but there a couple of points above that aren't clear. Especially the Roman standard thing. Think of it, it was something that should have made them flee immediately. They did not. The bishop of the city and others prayed and fasted for four days and deliberated before that. Then they fled. No Romans were even at the wall at this time. They had temporarily drawn back. Nothing in the Holy Place for some time after that even if your scenario is verified. No Jesus DID ALSO say that when you see armies ...flee. THAT fits.

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

I was doing a little research because I was curious and I found this:

One of the early church fathers, Eusebius, did write this:

“The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella.” [Ecclesiastical History, tr. C. F. Cruse', 3rd ed., in Greek Ecclesiastical Historians, 6 Vols. (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1842), p. 110 (8:5).]

The commentator Adam Clarke writes:

“It is very remarkable that not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem, though there were many there when Cestius Gallus invested the city; and, had he persevered in the siege, he would soon have rendered himself master of it; but, when he unexpectedly and unaccountably raised the siege, the Christians took that opportunity to escape. …

“[As] Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished.” [Clarke's Commentary Matthew--Revelation: A Classic Help to a Better Understanding of the Bible by Adam Clarke, LL. D., F. S. A., etc., Volume V. - Matthew to the Acts, Abingdon, Nashville, TN, ISBN 0-687-09121-7, pp. 228-229.]

He also noted that one of the other church fathers, "Epiphanes also attested to the Christian escape." [Ibid., p. 228.] He also notes this escape took place in the year 66 A.D. at the time "during the attack by Gallus."

That was just a morning's research; there may be more I haven't found, yet, but if you'd like, I'll keep searching.

[Uriah]

I seriously doubt ANYONE but Romans were EYE WITNESSES to events going on inside the temple. Josephus-certainly not!