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Uriah

7 YEAR TRIBULATION?

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On 8/15/2019 at 10:47 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Abdicate

You do realize, I hope that significant things run concurrently in Revelation, right? Even in your post you show how that is done, otherwise you would be beyond the 7 yr. mark. ( I know, you have a typo as well, no big deal) The same is true in Rev. By staying in the CONTEXT, Dan. 9:27 refers to to the covenant that Daniel prayed about earlier in the chapter. That is what he prayed about, that is what the angel answered about. Therefore the one in the midst of the week is the Messiah. Tomorrow I will post a textual analysis I learned a while back that shows the pattern and the supporting scriptures from the NT. Meanwhile that linear reading of Rev. throws people off. See  my above post about the trumpets and vials, please.

No, revelation is NOT more than seven years.

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15 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

I noticed that Matt. 23 has no direct connection to the "abomination" just simply shares a word in common-desolate (tion). However in Matt. 24 Jesus directs us to look for the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet....standing the Holy Place. The list above doesn't fit well with this prophecy. If the list had been done already when Jesus spoke the list, AND the list IS the abomination of desolation, shouldn't people have fled right then and there? 

Is the abomination (often taken to mean an idol or image) still future? Or is this all fulfilled by allusions?

Shalom, Uriah.

The "abomination" is ANYTHING that disgusts God or men. That CAN be an idol or an image, but it can also be direct rebellion against Himself and/or the hatred and rejection against His own beloved Son whom HE selected as His Messiah to be their King!

The Hebrew word for "abominations" is "shiqquwtsiym," the plural of "shiqquwts":

8251 shiqquwts (shik-koots'). Or shiqquts {shik-koots'}; from shaaqats; disgusting, i.e. Filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol
-- abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

8262 shaaqats (shaw-kats'). A primitive root; to be filthy, i.e. (intensively) to loathe, pollute
-- abhor, make abominable, have in abomination, detest, X utterly.

And, the reason for the word "abominationS" is that Daniel 9:27 uses the phrase "v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym," using the plural and meaning "and-against an-extended-wing of-abominations."

The rest of the clause adds "mshomeem," meaning "he shall make desolate."

Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV)

15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... ."

In Matthew 24, Yeshua` said (translated into Greek),

15 "Hotan oun ideete to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos to rheethen dia Danieel tou profeetou hestos en topoo hagioo, ta anaginooskoon noeitoo, 16 tote hoi en tee Ioudaia feugetoosan eis ta oree, ... ."

which is translated into English word-for-word as...

15 "When therefore ye-shall-see the abomination of-the desolation the-one spoken-about through Daniel the prophet stand in a-place holy, the-one reading let-him-understand, 16 then those in the Judaea let-them-flee into the mountains, ... ."

Thus, the resultant is the "abomination" in this case, not the cause! The cause is the "desolation." As in many times of testing, people are given 40 years to repent, and this time was no different. However, the Jews did NOT repent or change their minds about accepting the Messiah, and so, the abomination - the disgusting thing to the Jews - was the Roman banner and eagle standing in their beloved Temple. When they saw this occur, the wise and instructed by the Messiah were to leave immediately and head for the mountains!

This has already occurred in 66 A.D. prior to the Temple's destruction in 70 A.D. Seeing that the Jews took up arms and would put up a fight and rebel against Roman occupation of the Temple, the Romans put up a siege against Jerusalem, and the city was closed off until the Romans won the day in 70 A.D. The armies of Rome burnt down the Temple and melted its gold into all the cracks and crevices between the stones of the buildings. To get to the gold, they dismantled all the buildings of the Temple, leaving "no stone upon another," as Yeshua` predicted.

Only the ones who got out before the Jews and the Romans locked up Jerusalem were guaranteed escape. Many Jews died or were taken captive by the Romans when the Romans conquered the city.

Rome was known for its heavy war machines and armament, restricting their movement along low places and well-maintained roads. Therefore, the mountains were the best places to escape.

Yeshua` pronounced them "desolate" in 30 A.D., but "the hammer didn't fall" until 70 A.D.

The "List" were the abominations that caused the desolation to occur; the desolation caused the abomination of the Temple's desecration.

Thus, the tribulation began in the First Century with the destruction of the Temple and later the destruction of Jerusalem and the killing or deportation of the Jews to all the nations of the Roman Empire - the Disaspora.

Yeshua` also told His disciples (and us) that the tribulation would continue until the End, just before the signs of His Second Coming:

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

(later,)

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation (Greek: Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin = "But immediately after the tribulation") of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thus, the tribulation (Greek: thlipsis) has lasted through all the Roman persecutions, the Inquisitions, the Purges, the Pogroms, the Holocaust, and even now in the constant Terrorism from the "Palestinians" (displaced Jordanians) who occupy the Gaza Strip (the land that once belonged to the Philistines, which the Romans called "Palestine") and the West Bank (the mountains of Israel), as well as from the surrounding Muslim countries.

The "tribulation" has lasted from 70 A.D. to 2019 A.D. (so far), and will continue to be poured upon the desolate (the Jews) until they learn to accept Yeshua` as the Messiah of God He was and is! When they can learn to welcome Him as God's Representative with God's authority, then the tribulation will end, and the last half of the 70th Seven will start.

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12 hours ago, Abdicate said:

No, revelation is NOT more than seven years.

Hi Abdicate

Very well. You do lay out a scenario where two time periods of 3.5 yrs. are combined. And you show the reference to Dan.9:27 as meaning a 7 yr. period. But as I said, have to add concurrent reading to it. What do you do with the 7 thunders that aren't divulged. You will in the least need do see them as concurrent somewhere or else you will go beyond the 7 yr. time frame. 

So why not (merge) the other two 3.5 yr. periods? Or, would you say for example that the Euphrates, mentioned in the 6th trumpet AND the 6th vial are about 3.5 yrs apart? Or the darkness shown in the 5th vial AND the 5th trumpet? Or the sun during the 4th vial AND the 4th trumpet? Same for the rivers and fountains of waters at the 3rd vial AND the 3rd trumpet? The sea at the second vial AND trumpet? Something affecting plants AND people comes down from above in the first vial AND trumpet. Do you view them as all being approx 3.5 yrs. apart from each other? Then of course we have lightnings, thunder hail, voices and earthquake common to the seals AND trumpets AND vials-all three. 

I rather see the biblical pattern of "pre-telling and re-telling" as found starting in Genesis. I also believe that Jesus is the subject of Dan. 9:27 confirming "the covenant" with many ( strengthening the covenant and including us).

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

The "abomination" is ANYTHING that disgusts God or men. That CAN be an idol or an image, but it can also be direct rebellion against Himself and/or the hatred and rejection against His own beloved Son whom HE selected as His Messiah to be their King!

The Hebrew word for "abominations" is "shiqquwtsiym," the plural of "shiqquwts":

8251 shiqquwts (shik-koots'). Or shiqquts {shik-koots'}; from shaaqats; disgusting, i.e. Filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol
-- abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

8262 shaaqats (shaw-kats'). A primitive root; to be filthy, i.e. (intensively) to loathe, pollute
-- abhor, make abominable, have in abomination, detest, X utterly.

And, the reason for the word "abominationS" is that Daniel 9:27 uses the phrase "v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym," using the plural and meaning "and-against an-extended-wing of-abominations."

The rest of the clause adds "mshomeem," meaning "he shall make desolate."

Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV)

15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... ."

In Matthew 24, Yeshua` said (translated into Greek),

15 "Hotan oun ideete to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos to rheethen dia Danieel tou profeetou hestos en topoo hagioo, ta anaginooskoon noeitoo, 16 tote hoi en tee Ioudaia feugetoosan eis ta oree, ... ."

which is translated into English word-for-word as...

15 "When therefore ye-shall-see the abomination of-the desolation the-one spoken-about through Daniel the prophet stand in a-place holy, the-one reading let-him-understand, 16 then those in the Judaea let-them-flee into the mountains, ... ."

Thus, the resultant is the "abomination" in this case, not the cause! The cause is the "desolation." As in many times of testing, people are given 40 years to repent, and this time was no different. However, the Jews did NOT repent or change their minds about accepting the Messiah, and so, the abomination - the disgusting thing to the Jews - was the Roman banner and eagle standing in their beloved Temple. When they saw this occur, the wise and instructed by the Messiah were to leave immediately and head for the mountains!

This has already occurred in 66 A.D. prior to the Temple's destruction in 70 A.D. Seeing that the Jews took up arms and would put up a fight and rebel against Roman occupation of the Temple, the Romans put up a siege against Jerusalem, and the city was closed off until the Romans won the day in 70 A.D. The armies of Rome burnt down the Temple and melted its gold into all the cracks and crevices between the stones of the buildings. To get to the gold, they dismantled all the buildings of the Temple, leaving "no stone upon another," as Yeshua` predicted.

Only the ones who got out before the Jews and the Romans locked up Jerusalem were guaranteed escape. Many Jews died or were taken captive by the Romans when the Romans conquered the city.

Rome was known for its heavy war machines and armament, restricting their movement along low places and well-maintained roads. Therefore, the mountains were the best places to escape.

Yeshua` pronounced them "desolate" in 30 A.D., but "the hammer didn't fall" until 70 A.D.

The "List" were the abominations that caused the desolation to occur; the desolation caused the abomination of the Temple's desecration.

Thus, the tribulation began in the First Century with the destruction of the Temple and later the destruction of Jerusalem and the killing or deportation of the Jews to all the nations of the Roman Empire - the Disaspora.

Yeshua` also told His disciples (and us) that the tribulation would continue until the End, just before the signs of His Second Coming:

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

(later,)

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation (Greek: Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin = "But immediately after the tribulation") of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thus, the tribulation (Greek: thlipsis) has lasted through all the Roman persecutions, the Inquisitions, the Purges, the Pogroms, the Holocaust, and even now in the constant Terrorism from the "Palestinians" (displaced Jordanians) who occupy the Gaza Strip (the land that once belonged to the Philistines, which the Romans called "Palestine") and the West Bank (the mountains of Israel), as well as from the surrounding Muslim countries.

The "tribulation" has lasted from 70 A.D. to 2019 A.D. (so far), and will continue to be poured upon the desolate (the Jews) until they learn to accept Yeshua` as the Messiah of God He was and is! When they can learn to welcome Him as God's Representative with God's authority, then the tribulation will end, and the last half of the 70th Seven will start.

Hi Retro

Ok when did they see the abomination in the Holy Place...and immediately flee? 

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I just want to make sure I am on record, to be clear, that the coming tribulation/great tribulation is NOT 7 yrs. long. It is just a bit over 42 months long. Furthermore, all of those catastrophic judgments take place at the last handful of months!

  • This is Worthy 1

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21 minutes ago, Uriah said:

I just want to make sure I am on record, to be clear, that the coming tribulation/great tribulation is NOT 7 yrs. long. It is just a bit over 42 months long. Furthermore, all of those catastrophic judgments take place at the last handful of months!

True.

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1 hour ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

True.

Thanks Sonshine!...God (will) bless you!

  • Praise God! 1

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2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Thanks Sonshine!...God (will) bless you!

I was so glad to see your post!  It was indeed a blessing from the good Lord.  

8DAC7BF3-5C49-420E-A842-79EC5436D2D5.gif.f88b41f85d73a9b0a515592988a61864.gif  Shine on!

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6 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Ok when did they see the abomination in the Holy Place...and immediately flee? 

Shalom, Uriah.

That's not in recorded history (to my knowledge) because the numbers were relatively few, but that would have occurred in 66-69 A.D. It happened just prior to the First Jewish-Roman War. The majority of the Jews took up arms and attempted to fight against the Romans because they desecrated the Temple. The Roman Siege against Jerusalem occurred in 69 A.D. That IS recorded by the historian Josephus, and he records that it was a FAILED attempt and the Temple was burned and torn down, as Yeshua` predicted.

THAT'S when the first persecution began. THAT'S when family members turned on each other in an attempt to gain deferential treatment for turning in one of Rome's enemies.

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

That's not in recorded history (to my knowledge) because the numbers were relatively few, but that would have occurred in 66-69 A.D. It happened just prior to the First Jewish-Roman War. The majority of the Jews took up arms and attempted to fight against the Romans because they desecrated the Temple. The Roman Siege against Jerusalem occurred in 69 A.D. That IS recorded by the historian Josephus, and he records that it was a FAILED attempt and the Temple was burned and torn down, as Yeshua` predicted.

THAT'S when the first persecution began. THAT'S when family members turned on each other in an attempt to gain deferential treatment for turning in one of Rome's enemies.

Hi Retro

Maybe I am not following it quite right so far but it seems like you have explained Jesus teaching what the abomination of desolation is (not in what we understand to be the "Holy Place") but nobody fled from it and the emergency they would have needed to flee from wasn't until decades later.

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