Repose Posted August 23, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 205 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 231 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/06/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2019 People are talking about how before Jesus died, nobody went to heaven, and a few have made points about Enoch and Elijah. But... Before Jesus died, there was the Transfiguration. Jesus began to glow brightly, and the disciples were witness to him speaking to Moses and Elijah. What do you guys take this as meaning? Where they appearing out of Sheol, or out of heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted August 24, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,826 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,754 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 24, 2019 15 hours ago, Repose said: People are talking about how before Jesus died, nobody went to heaven, and a few have made points about Enoch and Elijah. But... Before Jesus died, there was the Transfiguration. Jesus began to glow brightly, and the disciples were witness to him speaking to Moses and Elijah. What do you guys take this as meaning? Where they appearing out of Sheol, or out of heaven? We know how God sent the chariot to take Elijah up to him... Elijah being the seed of Abraham from one of the twelve tribes if he had died he would be gather to Abraham... God had separated Abraham and his seed from the rest of the world.... And he took them for himself...he made a Nation out of Abraham to be his people... Not only he gave Abraham and his seed their own place Canaan in this life....but he also separated Abraham and his seed from the rest of the world after they died.... That's where Abraham went after he died, and that's where his children were gather to him. That's where he receive his seed after they died... This was their inheritance after death...they descended to the Bosom of Abraham, their Patriarch...that's what God told Abraham and that's what he did... They were his people not only when they lived but also after they died... They did not mix with the other people while they lived and also after they died... Abraham knew that; the prophets knew that, David knew that and he wrote a lot about it, and like Abraham he Knew that one day the Lord God as the seed of the woman Jesus the Christ will descend to the Bossom of Abraham and not only give them Life...becoming their Patriarch of the children with the Life, but also to take them to their knew inheritance the Heavenly one... God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him the Heaven as his inheritance, not only for him but also for his children with the Life, the seed of the Patriarch with the Life...The Life giver Jesus Christ...he could do that only after he died.. God the Creator as the seed of the woman he enter our word, and when he died he enter the place of the dead...there was not any other way to descend to the place of the dead....and the Bossom of Abraham...he had to die first....to be out of his dead body. Jesus did not have an inheritance in the Bossom of Abraham...among other things he was in the Life... No one else had died before who was in the Life...the Devil or no one else can touch him... While in the body before the Cross they did....but not after he went in the place of the dead. Jesus was in the Life....there was not inheritance for him in the place of the dead...and also when he gave Life to Abraham and his seed with him....there was not inheritance for them in the place of the dead... They had to go to Heaven...the place if those with the Life of Jesus Christ... Jesus knew about Elijah; And about Enoch; who lived before the flood...a man of the fallen seed of Adam...God took him before he dies...because he cannot take him after he dies.... If Enoch had died at the time of his death he will descend, like Abel who descended before him in the place of the dead.....where God who was in Life.... could not go...in the place of the dead.... The Bossom of Abraham was a descending inheritance, separated from the dead of the rest of the world, only for Abraham and his seed, no one else... After the Cross when Jesus went to them to give them life... And where John the Baptist went after his death to announce the coming of the Jesus Christ, the Messiah the Life Giver with the Heavenly Inheritance... The Bossom of Abraham was not needed any more, as Jesus took Abraham and his seed with him to their knew inheritance in Heaven.. Jesus also knew about Moses, whom God also took in Heaven before he died and had to keep it a secret from the people. That why he told the disciples not to say anything of what they show to anyone..for many other reasons. Jesus on one of his discussions with Nicodemus, who knew about Enoch and Elijah from the same sources as we do "the same scriptures"... Told him something that did not confused or mix up Nicodemus... When Jesus told Nicodemus what we read in John 3;13... John 3:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a] John 3:13 King James Version (KJV) 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man. (which is in heaven). Nicodemus and also the disciples who knew about Enoch and Elijah...understand that Jesus-the Son if Man-was telling that as he was talking to them that he has ascended to Heaven and of course he had come back- if not how can he be their talking to them... Jesus was telling them that this has happened before he was talking to them...of course that is before his death... He was telling them who he was...that has a lot of information about himself, Jesus knew all about who he was before he was conceived and enter our word as "the seed of the woman", we also understand something about his mission as the seed of the woman...from Genesis...chapter 2: the disciples understood that Jesus was telling them that he has been up in Heaven...ascended...and he came back, that this is possible only for him because he is not the seed of Man... this never happened to Enoch or Elijah to descend to Heaven and come back during their life time.. those two prophets they did not even ascended in Heaven as being from the fallen seed, God provided transportation to take them up.... on their own cannot...stuck to earth...gravity....and more than that. we see that God could take someone up alive in is body. But the Devil cannot take anyone in his body to Hell. That never happened and will never happened... that's why we can walk on earth....we cannot descend alive to Hell...or the place of the dead.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted August 24, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,929 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted August 24, 2019 On 8/22/2019 at 1:28 PM, JohnD said: Were they like Lazarus (for example) who was raised from the grave and who eventually died again? The Bible is actually silent on this point. The only biblically confirmed human resurrection / ascension to the third heaven is Jesus Christ (Mark 16:19, Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 10:12 Hebrews 12:2). Bro. John, Bro. Cletus is asking for evidence that they eventually died again. Could you give some clue ? 16 hours ago, Cletus said: where does the bible say what you said? that they died again? so its not me that needs evidence, you made the claim. where is your evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 25, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,644 Content Per Day: 2.03 Reputation: 5,830 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 As I said... the only scriptural evidence that we DO HAVE DO HAVE is that Jesus rose in his eternal resurrected state never again to die. I challenge you or anyone else to produce evidence of anyone raised from the dead in scripture as to whether or not they died again. Larry Feldman goes as far to say that the risings from the dead of Lazarus, the daughter of Jairus, the widow's son, etc. were restorations from the dead (meaning they were dead and brought back to life but had to die again) as opposed to resurrections from the dead (being brought back to life from the dead and never dying again). My point is there is no biblical evidence what happened to those who rose from the grave and were seen in Jerusalem when Jesus rose from the grave. Did they died again? Did they live forevermore? We don't know. The Bible doesn't say. We can only go on what the Bible DOES say. Jesus is the only human being on biblical record that is eternally resurrected and is bodily in heaven. Please do supply scriptures to the contrary Cletus or R. Hartono or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 25, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,644 Content Per Day: 2.03 Reputation: 5,830 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 Going by the biblical evidence... rather than arguments from silence (therefore speculation and supposition borne in the hearts of feeble / superstitious mankind) all who die are in a disembodied state (spirit) whether in Gehenna (the grave / chamber awaiting Judgment Day) or in heaven with Jesus (if they believed in Jesus and are saved). The first resurrection (age) is of the Messiah / Lamb of God alone whose death burial and resurrection opened heaven to the spirits of the dead in Christ: Revelation 20:4–10 (AV) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived†† and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not** again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power††, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Proverbs 20:27 (AV) 27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly. Ecclesiastes 3:21 (AV) 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Zechariah 12:1 (AV) 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 1 Corinthians 2:11 (AV) 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (AV) 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Clearly man has a spirit. Spirits continue even when the body dies. The likening of life and death to a spirit is where it spends time after the death of the body: †† Heaven = life ** Gehenna / Hell = death So rather than what it merely appears (in Revelation 20) to be: that those who live are bodily raised while those who have yet to live are not bodily raised... it rather is speaking of disposition of spirits (those who believe and live in heaven with Jesus, and those who do not believe in Jesus and are in Gehenna awaiting judgment). Our "part in the first resurrection" is our salvation: 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power... The term First Resurrection is a name for the age of Grace. It does not mean the people spoken of here were bodily raised but rather that the Savior has been bodily raised ushering in the New Testament / New Covenant (Hebrews 9:16-17 plus the glorious resurrection of the Testator). Be advised, I am convinced the thousand year reign refers to the Church age and it is not a literal 999 + 1 years time period (but the use of the Greek language to indicate a long period of time notice the word for thousand in the Greek is plural [thousands]). Otherwise the scriptures that indicate Jesus will bring the saints with him in his second coming (Jude 14) and the dead in Christ rising first (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) makes no sense if they are already bodily raised. To go back into the dust (or to be disembodied again to make the return trip to Earth). Conclusion: Jesus alone is the only resurrected man. All who die in Christ go to heaven in spirit only (2 Corinthians 5) until the genera resurrection of all mankind (believers to eternal life, unbelievers to bow the knee and declare Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father Philippians 2:9-11... then onto the lake of fire Revelation 20:11-15 for the destruction of the body and the soul Matthew 10:28 and the eternal existence in everlasting fire in spirit: the second death). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted August 25, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2019 On 8/20/2019 at 1:22 PM, missmuffet said: Yes, both of them were raptured to heaven without dying. God had a purpose for that. I beg to differ with your use of the term rapture when referring to Enoch and Elijah when God took them to heaven. There is one rapture and it has not yet occurred. The Bible says it is appointed for man to die once. They are awaiting their appointed time as we all are...either we will die or we will be changed before the living, at the coming of our Lord at the rapture, a future event. the only 2 humans to be translated are Enoch and Elijah. Quite possibly the two witnesses who will witness in Jerusalem. They will be killed and then be taken to heaven. Use the word rapture for the coming event we all await...the catching away, the snatching out of harms way...etc. The rapture precedes the Tribulation. Just trying to clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted August 25, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,990 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,688 Content Per Day: 11.83 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2019 23 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said: I beg to differ with your use of the term rapture when referring to Enoch and Elijah when God took them to heaven. There is one rapture and it has not yet occurred. The Bible says it is appointed for man to die once. They are awaiting their appointed time as we all are...either we will die or we will be changed before the living, at the coming of our Lord at the rapture, a future event. the only 2 humans to be translated are Enoch and Elijah. Quite possibly the two witnesses who will witness in Jerusalem. They will be killed and then be taken to heaven. Use the word rapture for the coming event we all await...the catching away, the snatching out of harms way...etc. The rapture precedes the Tribulation. Just trying to clarify. Transported? Taken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted August 25, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2019 Yes. One of the translations uses the term translated. Taken would to my thinking be appropriate. The dictionary uses ‘to change the form of’ for translated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 26, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,644 Content Per Day: 2.03 Reputation: 5,830 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 26, 2019 14 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said: I beg to differ with your use of the term rapture when referring to Enoch and Elijah when God took them to heaven. There is one rapture and it has not yet occurred. The Bible says it is appointed for man to die once. They are awaiting their appointed time as we all are...either we will die or we will be changed before the living, at the coming of our Lord at the rapture, a future event. the only 2 humans to be translated are Enoch and Elijah. Quite possibly the two witnesses who will witness in Jerusalem. They will be killed and then be taken to heaven. Use the word rapture for the coming event we all await...the catching away, the snatching out of harms way...etc. The rapture precedes the Tribulation. Just trying to clarify. Yes and no. The Latin word rapturum = "caught up" from 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and reiterated in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 "gathering together"... Enoch and Elijah were not in this yet to happen event called THE rapture. But the simple fact remains they were taken away, out of this life, gathered up, etc. My points (I realize you were addressing missmuffett on this matter btw) regarding these two is in what form were they [translated]? and to where were they translated? To heaven. As I recall the mention regarding Elijah was the clearer of the two (2 Kings 2:1 / 2 Kings 2:11). But 2 Corinthians 12 states there are three heavens. Scholars debate this and generally agree that as far as the three heavens go, 1. is the sky 2. is outer space 3. is Paradise where God is enthroned My take on this: 1. is the sky and outer space 2. is gehenna (the temporary three compartment bode of the dead until judgment day) 3. Paradise (which is for now the place apart from the other two realms [including Earth] until heaven and Earth are eliminated and the new heaven-earth is created in their place). The scriptures do mention that until Jesus no man has ever ascended or descended into heaven (John 3:13). This would appear to contradict 2 Kings 2 (unless the additionally revealed information that there are in fact three heavens is taken into consideration). Obviously John 3:13 is referring to the 3rd heaven spoken of in 2 Corinthians 12. So, which of the other two did Enoch and Elijah go to? In what state? In the body or out of the body? 2 Corinthians 12 (AV) 1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. Point here: Being in the body or out of the body is not so drastic a difference as people suppose. The account (not a parable when Abraham and Lazarus are named) of Luke 16:19-31 the rich man and lazarus... Notice all the physical attributes of these disembodied spirits. Acts 2:29 and other places speak to the fact that the body returns to dust and is still in tombs among folks. So, the account of the richman and lazarus is not a bodily resurrection story (from which the Romanized tradition developed into the doctrine of Purgatory). So, there is not that much difference between embodiment and disembodiment. Otherwise how could the Apostle Paul state the highlighted above? Enoch and Elijah are the only two of record who did not die and possibly could have been bodily translated to Abraham's Bosom in Gehenna. For what purpose? God only knows. Many speculate that they will be the two witnesses in Revelation 11. This may be due to a strict observance of: Hebrews 9:27 (AV) 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: BUT! This apparently did not apply to those who were raised from the dead in scripture (including Lazarus) who had to die again. This could have something to do with the circumstances of the death of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 making some legal point about the Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted August 26, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted August 26, 2019 I do differ again. When Jesus rose from the dead He took captivity captive.. He took those who rose with Him from Paradise in Sheol, to heaven. That is why when believers die, they go to the heavenly Paradise to await the rapture. When it comes to Enoch and Elijah the term translated is used, meaning ‘changed’. Changed from their human body to another type..to await their time possibly in the Tribulation and their death. It is appointed for all to die ...then, the resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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