The Difference between Dan. 70th week & the Tribulation.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Daniel and Revelations (great money-spinners) would be not so high on many agendas if they were to be seen as largely a fait accompli. I know there is almost certain to be a massive battle towards the end, and seen from the perspective of God's Council, more relevant emphasis should be focused on what God is actually doing right now and His definitely stated aims and goals and how He acts to bring them about.

When the focus (deliberate) is on past prophesy and future unknowable stuff, it is a nice fertile field for all kinds of chicanery and slight of hand to keep the peasants paying their dues, fearful of their selfish hides. Get their attention off God's present workings and intentions.

I see a different emphasis with a real in-depth understanding of the Heart of God and His very real intentions towards us as His Sons and a part of His blended family. His world and not just us is His focus.

Sure. I think you are correct. But that doesn't mean other studies or focuses are unimportant or incorrect. We dont all have the same gifts but we can learn from each other, as it was meant to be, I'm certain. 

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, douggg said:

"God's handiwork" - what does than mean?

What do you think it means ? Only those that know God see what He's doing.....His hand at work in world events, in mankind etc. etc. 

13 hours ago, douggg said:

The Jews will be saying peace and safety - not repenting and worshiping Jesus before the Day of the Lord begins.  

Those in the DARK will be saying peace and safety, those in the light will not be. That doesn't mean they will accept a Gentile as their King, error yours.

13 hours ago, douggg said:

When the Antichrist betrays them, it will come as a complete surprise.    

 

When the Little Horn turns on them I don't think it will be a complete surprise per se. The build up of Nazi Germany was not a complete surprise. Those that say Peace and Safety is a reference to the atheistic types who trust in MANKIND, then the Wrath of God falls, thus its called the Day of the Lord that falls upon them. You are trying to say its the Anti-Christs doing, NO....the DOTL is all God's doing. He releases the Beast to go forth as Judgment on the world and mankind. The AoD happens 30 days before the Little Horn Conquers Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region, so it can't be a complete surprise.

13 hours ago, douggg said:

The Jews aren't raptured, which shows you argument invalid.   They are still here on earth in Zechariah 14 when Jesus returns to rescue them.

Erroneous thinking here brother....some Jews are Raptured, the IN PART TYPES are indeed Raptured, the Jews are blind IN PART.....so the Jews like Paul, John, etc. etc. will of course be Raptured they are THE PART that are not blind. The Jews who are married to God, pre Jesus and the Jews who come to Christ after the Rapture will of course be raised at the very end.

13 hours ago, douggg said:

Well, you have been wrong multiple times.    The two witnesses die at the end of their testimony is what the text says.

 

And that happens at the 2nd Woe. So you again sir are in error if you state otherwise.

13 hours ago, douggg said:

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Why is this so difficult ?

Rev. 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

They die at the END of the Second Woe !!

 

13 hours ago, douggg said:

From Judaism 101.org:

'The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days. "

 

Now look at my chart upper left corner.   "anointed the King of Israel by the False Prophet".    The only three previous kings of united Israel were....    Saul and David anointed king of Israel, by prophet Samuel.   Solomon anointed king of Israel by prophet Nathan.

 

The Jews believe that the coming Messiah is a POLITICAL LEADER. PERIOD.

[Retrobyter]

On 8/27/2019 at 5:11 AM, Diaste said:

I prefer this as it's scriptural. As you say: Beginning of Sorrows, A of D, Great Tribulation, The Sign of the Coming of the Son of Man, The Gathering, Wrath.

Shalom, Diaste.

All you have are a bunch of LABELS! There's no SUBSTANCE behind these labels! It's only "Scriptural" because each of these sets of words are found in Scripture; HOWEVER, they are pieces to a puzzle that are not connecting to each other! What good is THAT?!

You've got to ask yourself a series of questions (and find LEGITIMATE answers) that any good journalist would ask: WHAT are the "Beginning of Sorrows?" WHEN did they (or will they) occur? WHAT CAUSES the "Beginning of Sorrows?" WHO are suffering these "Sorrows?" WHO is initiating these "Sorrows?" WHERE will these "Sorrows" be experienced? HOW LONG will these "Sorrows" be experienced? And, there may be MORE such questions that one could raise about this term "Beginning of Sorrows."

That's just the FIRST label! These sorts of questions should be raised about EACH ONE of these labels!

I believe that, when the Messiah Yeshua` returns, He will NOT return to the place He left! He will have come to RESCUE His people, and He shall become the King of Israel, just as is PROMISED in prophetic Scripture!

 Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

I believe that He shall "pick up right where He left off"; that is, He will once again perform the miracles that His Father will give Him to perform, and these miracles will legitimize and authenticate the Messiah as God's Choice for Israel's King. And, this too was promised in prophetic Scripture! There was a REASON why Yeshua` quoted Scripture to the disciples of Yochanan (John)!

Matthew 11:2-6 (KJV)

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 
3 And said unto him,

"Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"

4 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

Luke 7:1-23 (KJV)

1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum (K'far-Nachuwm).

2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. 
3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. 4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying,

"That he was worthy for whom he should do this: 5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue." 

6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, 

"Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: 7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. 8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, 'Go,' and he goeth; and to another, 'Come,' and he cometh; and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he doeth it."

9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him,

"I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."

10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

11 And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people. 12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her. 13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, 

"Weep not."

14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said,

"Young man, I say unto thee, Arise."

15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. 16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying,

"That a great prophet is risen up among us"; and, 

"That God hath visited his people."

17 And this rumour of him went forth throughout all Judaea, and throughout all the region round about.

18And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. 19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, 

"Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?"

20 When the men were come unto him, they said, 

"John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, 'Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?'"

21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. 22 Then Jesus answering said unto them,

"Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. 23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

What Yeshua` was doing was to perform the miracles that the Ultimate Messiah of God would perform:

Isaiah 35:1-10 (KJV)

1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart,

"Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons (lizards), where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called "The way of holiness"; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

and,

Isaiah 61:1-11 (KJV)

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Yeshua` used these thoughts and words to verify that HE was the Messiah of prophecy, and He demonstrated these miracles to John's disciples. The only way that would be possible is if the miracles are to be those performed by the Messiah of prophecy IN THE FUTURE, TOO, NOT JUST AT THE FIRST ADVENT!

Edited August 29, 2019 by Retrobyter

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

All you have are a bunch of LABELS! There's no SUBSTANCE behind these labels! It's only "Scriptural" because each of these sets of words are found in Scripture; HOWEVER, they are pieces to a puzzle that are not connecting to each other! What good is THAT?!

There is a great deal of substance extant but I wasn't writing a book, it was a reply to a specific audience about a specific topic and an outline was a perfect fit.

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You've got to ask yourself a series of questions (and find LEGITIMATE answers) that any good journalist would ask: WHAT are the "Beginning of Sorrows?" WHEN did they (or will they) occur? WHAT CAUSES the "Beginning of Sorrows?" WHO are suffering these "Sorrows?" WHO is initiating these "Sorrows?" WHERE will these "Sorrows" be experienced? HOW LONG will these "Sorrows" be experienced? And, there may be MORE such questions that one could raise about this term "Beginning of Sorrows."

That's just the FIRST label! These sorts of questions should be raised about EACH ONE of these labels!

Only engaged in these questions many times over many years. More than likely covered each question for each event or condition in hundreds of posts on this forum

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I believe that, when the Messiah Yeshua` returns, He will NOT return to the place He left! He will have come to RESCUE His people, and He shall become the King of Israel, just as is PROMISED in prophetic Scripture!

I'm with ya here but I don't believe it, I know with absolute certainty these things will happen.

[douggg]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Those in the DARK will be saying peace and safety, those in the light will not be. That doesn't mean they will accept a Gentile as their King, error yours.

The person has to be a Jew - from the Gentile nations.

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

When the Little Horn turns on them I don't think it will be a complete surprise per se. The build up of Nazi Germany was not a complete surprise. Those that say Peace and Safety is a reference to the atheistic types who trust in MANKIND, then the Wrath of God falls, thus its called the Day of the Lord that falls upon them. You are trying to say its the Anti-Christs doing, NO....the DOTL is all God's doing. He releases the Beast to go forth as Judgment on the world and mankind. The AoD happens 30 days before the Little Horn Conquers Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region, so it can't be a complete surprise.

The Day of the Lord happens like a thief in the night, totally unexpected by them saying peace and safety.

1Thessalonians5

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Erroneous thinking here brother....some Jews are Raptured, the IN PART TYPES are indeed Raptured, the Jews are blind IN PART.....so the Jews like Paul, John, etc. etc. will of course be Raptured they are THE PART that are not blind. The Jews who are married to God, pre Jesus and the Jews who come to Christ after the Rapture will of course be raised at the very end.

But the ones caught unexpectedly by the beginning of the Day of the Lord are not raptured.     So the Jews will not have repented and believe in Jesus, aforehand.

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

The person has to be a Jew - from the Gentile nations.

 

No, hes a Gentile born in Greece, of Assyrian descent. You can't argue with the bible brother, it calls him an Assyrian !!

1 hour ago, douggg said:

The Day of the Lord happens like a thief in the night, totally unexpected by them saying peace and safety.

 

To those in the DARK....Why is this so hard for you to get ? To those who are of Christ, well they are of Christ FOR A REASON, they understood what the Rapture was, Christians all over the world DIE AT ONE TIME. Then those Jews who repent and the Gentiles who come to Christ will indeed see what is coming, like Noah did, those "outside the Ark" will be laughing. Those in the DARK are overtaken by the day of the Lord unawares.

2 hours ago, douggg said:

1Thessalonians5

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

So you leave off the CONTEXT !! 

Only those not of God are IN THE DARK !! The Jews that Repent will not be IN THE DARK !! The Gentile Christians who become Martyrs will not be IN THE DARK, only the Wicked will be taken by surprise. 

2 hours ago, douggg said:

But the ones caught unexpectedly by the beginning of the Day of the Lord are not raptured.     So the Jews will not have repented and believe in Jesus, aforehand.

The Jews who REPENTED will be in Petra by that time, thus they are not caught up in the DOTL.....Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

God calls Israel to COME OUT OF Babylon {the World}.

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

To those in the DARK....Why is this so hard for you to get ? To those who are of Christ, well they are of Christ FOR A REASON, they understood what the Rapture was, Christians all over the world DIE AT ONE TIME. Then those Jews who repent and the Gentiles who come to Christ will indeed see what is coming, like Noah did, those "outside the Ark" will be laughing. Those in the DARK are overtaken by the day of the Lord unawares.

Those in the dark are those who will be saying peace and safety at the time, which will be the Jews(Judaism).    They will not be Christians when the Day of the Lord begins.

 

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Only those not of God are IN THE DARK !! The Jews that Repent will not be IN THE DARK !!

What I am contesting is your claim that the Jews will have repented before the Day of the Lord begins.    When the Jews [Judaism] do repent and turn to Jesus it will AFTER their perceived (known as the Antichrist) messiah betrays them.

Israel goes through the great tribulation, not raptured.    They will miss the rapture, because they will not be Christians before the rapture takes place.

The Jews that will have turned to Jesus, a small percentage of the world Jewish population, will not be saying peace and safety.    The majority of the Jews will be saying peace and safety.     The Antichrist confirms the covenant with the many.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

On 8/28/2019 at 4:29 PM, Revelation Man said:

The Jews believe that the coming Messiah is a POLITICAL LEADER. PERIOD.

I see you don't give any Judaism sources.    The person has to be descended from King David and be anointed the King of Israel.

You argument is like saying the President will be a political leader - but not acknowledging that he has to be President of the United States, having all of the legal requirement to be President of the United States. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by douggg

[Revelation Man]

11 hours ago, douggg said:

Those in the dark are those who will be saying peace and safety at the time, which will be the Jews(Judaism).    They will not be Christians when the Day of the Lord begins.

Your circular logic kicks in again......the bible says they REPENT BEFORE the Day of the Lord {Malachi 4:5-6}. Your thesis doesn't check out Douggg, it is what it is.

 

11 hours ago, douggg said:

They will not be Christians when the Day of the Lord begins.

You can call them whatsoever you will, the bible says they REPENT BEFORE the DOTL.

11 hours ago, douggg said:

What I am contesting is your claim that the Jews will have repented before the Day of the Lord begins.    When the Jews [Judaism] do repent and turn to Jesus it will AFTER their perceived (known as the Antichrist) messiah betrays them.

 

Your Anti-Christ theory is all consuming Douggg ? We can;t pretend we don't see that Malachi 4:5-6 which says the Jews REPENT BEFORE the DOTL. We can't just pretend its not there. The Jews FLEE Judea like Jesus says, you know the same Jesus the Jews detest right now and wont listen to, that should give you a clue, but Dougggg  is focused on the Anti-Christ being accepted by the Jews.

ALSO.....God PROTECTS THE JEWS.....{another clue} For 1260 days !!

They REPENT BEFORE the DOTL. Thus they flee at the 1290...3o days Before the DOTL begins. They never accept a Gentile King as their Messiah. Thats just a bad rumor Brother.

 

11 hours ago, douggg said:

Israel goes through the great tribulation, not raptured.    They will miss the rapture, because they will not be Christians before the rapture takes place.

SO ? So do the Gentile REMNANT CHURCH. There is 1260 days AT LEAST between the Rapture and the DOTL.....I would say 3.5 years is plenty of time to REPENT wouldn't you brother ? The Gentile Remnant REPENTS at that time also.

11 hours ago, douggg said:

The Jews that will have turned to Jesus, a small percentage of the world Jewish population, will not be saying peace and safety.    The majority of the Jews will be saying peace and safety.     The Antichrist confirms the covenant with the many.

 

The MANY are MANY NATIONS, not Just Israel, and that only means he agrees to a Geo Political solution to a worldly problem, you are the one that thinks its a Godly Covenant, I guess........I don't, the bible says nothing like that brother. How many times have I explained the MANY on here ? 

7 hours ago, douggg said:

I see you don't give any Judaism sources.  

I don't need to quote people not of God yet, I will let you do that, I study the historical actions of the Nation down through the ages.

7 hours ago, douggg said:

The person has to be descended from King David and be anointed the King of Israel.

No one is accepted as their Messiah, the Jews accept Jesus BEFORE the DOTL.

8 hours ago, douggg said:

You argument is like saying the President will be a political leader - but not acknowledging that he has to be President of the United States, having all of the legal requirement to be President of the United States. 

I am telling you who the Jews have seen the coming Messiah as throughout history. "READ UP ON IT" Brother. Your Anti-Christ theory has you on a road that you seemingly can't get off of. You went with that long ago and it's way too important to you. I am telling you this as a loving brother, not someone trying to pick a fight with you. You know I don't argue about these things. But I am concerned that you buy into this brother, take a step back and look at everything with a fresh look. 

God Bless.

[douggg]

13 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

We can;t pretend we don't see that Malachi 4:5-6 which says the Jews REPENT BEFORE the DOTL.

No, it doesn't say that in Malachi 4:5-6.    In those verses it speaks about Elijah.   Who will be one of the two witnesses, who testifies and prophesies in the first half of the 70th week, for 1260 days.     Near the end of the 1260 days, the Antichrist will betray the Jews, and his actions will trigger the beginning of the Day of Lord.    Which the Jews will respond in short order, to reject him as continuing as their King of Israel, and will turn to believe upon Jesus.      

Up to the point of the Antichrist betraying the Jews, Israel, they will be saying peace and safety, thinking there are in the early stages of the messianic era.

 

Malachi 4

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.