Please read this article

[Dafydd]

I would like to direct you to an article "Christ as Us and the Kingdom of God" that further develops some thoughts published here earlier. The article is found at daffydd.simplesite.com and concerns some implications of the teaching of Norman Grubb. I believe that the topic is one that will become increasingly important in the years ahead. 

 

[BeauJangles]

Okay so, I had no idea exactly Norman Grubb was. Looking up info on him there was this. My question would be, why be worried about a prolific missionary from the UK? He passed away in 1993. Is he some present threat to the faith or something? Oh by the way, I didn't see a link to your post. Can you furnish one, and I'll read the article if it's not too lengthy. Ones that are a bit long are a strain on my visual capabilities. Thanks! 

Norman Grubb was the son of an Irish Anglican clergyman, WWI soldier, Cambridge man, missionary, Bible translator, conference speaker, prolific author and avalanchine letter-writer. As a young zealot he joined the Heart of Africa Mission (HAM) led by his father-in-law, the radical pioneer missionary, C.T. Studd; and later became a disciple of revivalist Rees Howells, founder of the Bible College of Wales.

 

False Teacher – Norman Grubb

Victor Hafichuk 12 August,2016

 

“An Okay Christ”

Those who preach Christ yet relate to Him casually are presumptuous and have never met Him. They speak of another Jesus, one made in the image of sinful man, and not the sinless Savior. True preachers who have seen the Lord are not light and breezy, confident in the flesh. “Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me. For my beauty was turned within me to corruption, and I kept no strength” (Daniel 10:8 MKJV).

Norman Grubb:

I have many friends who are strong supporters of a man by the name of Norman Grubb. They share many of his articles and written works. I’m troubled by the fact that many seem to give a man and not Christ a place of premminence. Are you familiar with this gentleman and can you perhaps give guidence about his writings.

http://www.normangrubb.com/

Let me begin with something that may sound like sour grapes, because we certainly are not esteemed highly among men:

“And He said to them, ‘You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God’” (Luke 16:15 MKJV).

The moment you find someone charismatic and well-loved of men in religious circles, you smell a rat. Not that they always smell like rats. They appear as fine and well-bred race horses. It is the men of God that appear as rats to the world.

Didn’t the world crucify the Lord? Didn’t the respectable, reputable high society folk denounce Christ and His followers? They certainly did! And if we read the Biblical records and histories of the ancient and true prophets and sages of the Lord, we find that they weren’t popular at all. They were hated, shunned, persecuted, hunted down, and killed.

The genuine ministers of God had no formal religious credentials, and if they ever had any, they forsook them when Jesus Christ called and chose them to serve Him. True believers are to beware of those who have, use, and respect the credentials of this religious world. The minister of Christ will echo the words of Paul the apostle:

Philippians 3:2-11 MKJV
(2) Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision party.
(3) For we are the circumcision who worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh;
(4) though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other thinks that he has reason to trust in the flesh, I more.
(5) I was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews. As regards the Law, I was a Pharisee;
(6) concerning zeal, persecuting the church; regarding the righteousness in the Law, blameless.
(7) But whatever things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
(8) But no, rather, I also count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them to be dung, so that I may win Christ
(9) and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but through the faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by faith,
(10) that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death;
(11) if by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead.

Edited August 20, 2019 by BeauJangles

[unworthyservant]

8 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Okay so, I had no idea exactly Norman Grubb was. Looking up info on him there was this. My question would be, why be worried about a prolific missionary from the UK? He passed away in 1993. Is he some present threat to the faith or something? Oh by the way, I didn't see a link to your post. Can you furnish one, and I'll read the article if it's not too lengthy. Ones that are a bit long are a strain on my visual capabilities. Thanks! 

Norman Grubb was the son of an Irish Anglican clergyman, WWI soldier, Cambridge man, missionary, Bible translator, conference speaker, prolific author and avalanchine letter-writer. As a young zealot he joined the Heart of Africa Mission (HAM) led by his father-in-law, the radical pioneer missionary, C.T. Studd; and later became a disciple of revivalist Rees Howells, founder of the Bible College of Wales.

 

False Teacher – Norman Grubb

Victor Hafichuk 12 August,2016

 

“An Okay Christ”

Those who preach Christ yet relate to Him casually are presumptuous and have never met Him. They speak of another Jesus, one made in the image of sinful man, and not the sinless Savior. True preachers who have seen the Lord are not light and breezy, confident in the flesh. “Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me. For my beauty was turned within me to corruption, and I kept no strength” (Daniel 10:8 MKJV).

Norman Grubb:

I have many friends who are strong supporters of a man by the name of Norman Grubb. They share many of his articles and written works. I’m troubled by the fact that many seem to give a man and not Christ a place of premminence. Are you familiar with this gentleman and can you perhaps give guidence about his writings.

http://www.normangrubb.com/

Let me begin with something that may sound like sour grapes, because we certainly are not esteemed highly among men:

“And He said to them, ‘You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God’” (Luke 16:15 MKJV).

The moment you find someone charismatic and well-loved of men in religious circles, you smell a rat. Not that they always smell like rats. They appear as fine and well-bred race horses. It is the men of God that appear as rats to the world.

Didn’t the world crucify the Lord? Didn’t the respectable, reputable high society folk denounce Christ and His followers? They certainly did! And if we read the Biblical records and histories of the ancient and true prophets and sages of the Lord, we find that they weren’t popular at all. They were hated, shunned, persecuted, hunted down, and killed.

The genuine ministers of God had no formal religious credentials, and if they ever had any, they forsook them when Jesus Christ called and chose them to serve Him. True believers are to beware of those who have, use, and respect the credentials of this religious world. The minister of Christ will echo the words of Paul the apostle:

Philippians 3:2-11 MKJV
(2) Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision party.
(3) For we are the circumcision who worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh;
(4) though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other thinks that he has reason to trust in the flesh, I more.
(5) I was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews. As regards the Law, I was a Pharisee;
(6) concerning zeal, persecuting the church; regarding the righteousness in the Law, blameless.
(7) But whatever things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
(8) But no, rather, I also count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them to be dung, so that I may win Christ
(9) and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but through the faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by faith,
(10) that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death;
(11) if by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead.

Thank you BeauJangles. Not only did you save me the trouble of looking him up, you've summed up the entire thing quite nicely.

[BeauJangles]

Just now, unworthyservant said:

Thank you BeauJangles. Not only did you save me the trouble of looking him up, you've summed up the entire thing quite nicely.

You're most welcome. I did a little fishing and caught a whopper. Or so it seems. 

[unworthyservant]

2 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

You're most welcome. I did a little fishing and caught a whopper. Or so it seems. 

Yeah, so it seems. But it looks like you're all over it so I'm gonna leave this one alone.

[Not me]

3 hours ago, Dafydd said:

I would like to direct you to an article "Christ as Us and the Kingdom of God" that further develops some thoughts published here earlier. The article is found at daffydd.simplesite.com and concerns some implications of the teaching of Norman Grubb. I believe that the topic is one that will become increasingly important in the years ahead. 

 

Quite a good article, a couple things gave me pause, but over all quite good. Years ago I met Mr Grubb, a fat dumpy old man I didn’t think much of at the time. But the Minister of the Church I go to, who has since passed away, Siegfried Enke, thought very highly of Him and I thought and still do think very highly of Sieg.  

“Christ as us” I never cared for, as for the terminology. For it is not “Christ as us” but it is “Christ in us” but I bare witness with the idea and the faith behind it, for that is how God has brought me along. 

For it is our deaths in Christ and the realization of the meaning and intent of our deaths in Christ by faith. Our reckoning ourselves “dead to sin and alive unto God”  by the faith of the heart is what opens up one to walk in newness of life. This is that that has been lost to the body of Christ. This is what the article is putting forth, which I totally agree with. This and this alone is the one thing that is necessary for Christians to walk in newness of life. 

~~That just as they received the Spirit by the faith of their hearts turned to God, all increase comes by the same way, by the faith of the heart turned towards God.~~

It is always a choice of Christ or self. Whichever one chooses to obey, his servants you are. 

This is what the Church as a whole is lacking,  the knowledge of this truth. 

This same truth has been put forth by authors such as Andrew Murray and Watchman Nee, which there also are articles condemning;

https://www.thepathoftruth.com/false-teachers/andrew-murray.htm/amp

https://opc.org/qa.html?question_id=24

So you can find both good and bad articles on any and all authors if you search. 

So how is one to know which is of God and which one isn’t....

There is but one way and that is what your inner witness is telling you...This is what our obedience is to be to, our inner witness. So whichever way one’s inner witness directs them to,  that is what they need to be obedient to....

Blessings to all as they go to God themselves and ask, Not me  

edit;

Though I don’t think it’s always that one is of God and the other one isn’t. I think it’s the level and degree of maturity one has been brought into. For one can be totally convinced they are  walking in all the light they see, and they can absolutely be. But still cannot grasp the truths being put forth, they would be gibberish to them.... So to wherever one lands, it is obedience to their inner witness that will guide them into the more, as long as their heart stays asking and willing. 

Just thought I should add this, Not me 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Not me

[missmuffet]

3 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

You're most welcome. I did a little fishing and caught a whopper. Or so it seems. 

Good job 

[Dafydd]

I think that God will raise up the sort of Christians whom Grubb would describe as "Christ-as-us" Christians (yes, Not Me, I agree that this term is not the best; I prefer "Christ acting through us" but I use the term to identify with Grubb's terminology) to take leadership positions in church, government and society in general.  Eventually, the rule of Christ will come to complete manifestation through these surrendered people. Michael Cassidy's work in South Africa can be seen as a foretaste of this, I think.

[Not me]

32 minutes ago, Dafydd said:

I think that God will raise up the sort of Christians whom Grubb would describe as "Christ-as-us" Christians (yes, Not Me, I agree that this term is not the best; I prefer "Christ acting through us" but I use the term to identify with Grubb's terminology) to take leadership positions in church, government and society in general.  Eventually, the rule of Christ will come to complete manifestation through these surrendered people. Michael Cassidy's work in South Africa can be seen as a foretaste of this, I think.

I didn’t mean to make an issue of it. For it is a small thing as compared to the truth being put forth. 

“Christ acting through us” is also good, it is on point and scriptural. Just never cared for the “as us”,  it seemed to leave to much room for controversy. 

For God is building His body, I can’t speak whether He will raise up yielded people in government or places of authority. I’m sure there will be some. (least I hope so) 

Scripture says, He is returning for a bride without spot or blemish. I’ve heard, as I’m sure you have, different peoples take on that verse. As for me, I understand it as they will be walking in newness of life. For only one walking in newness of life, can one walk free from sin. Which is the life of Christ being manifested in and through a believer, as your post put forth. 

How, when and where, I can not say. All I can do is get as close to Christ as I possibly can and keep oil in my lamp. 

Blessing to you as Christ is being pursued, Not me

[Dafydd]

You are right about not getting too hung up over relatively minor matters when there are such important things raised here. The really vital matter, as it seems to me, is to move from "Christ in me" to "Christ acting through me" (more or less = "Christ as me"). Grubb taught that God created humans to be (as it were) receptacles of God the Holy Spirit in this world. He taught that only God possessed true personhood in the absolute sense and that we are persons only through our relationship with God. Think of an analogy involving the Sun and Moon. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as moonlight; it is only sunlight reflected from the Moon and if the Sun stopped shining, the Moon would be dark and invisible. If we fantasize that the Moon could think, imagine that it becomes deluded into believing that it is generating moonlight and not just reflecting sunlight. In its mind, it has become a little sun! Similarly, in Grubb's view, human beings only (as it were) "reflect" personhood. God is the Sun and we are the Moon. But we (like the Moon in our analogy) came to think of ourselves as autonomous persons - little gods so to speak - and it was in doing this that we split ourselves away from God and sin and evil entered the world. Christian ethicist Michael Hill said that to sin is to use something for a purpose other than that for which God created it and here we see the misuse of ourselves. God created us to be receptacles of the Holy Spirit and we misused these intended receptacles as independent persons. The very core of these persons (us) is sin - "sin within" motivates us. Everything that enhances our self or ego is the root of sin. But if we are born again of the Spirit, then our inner sin has been taken to the Cross - Christ has paid the price on our behalf and now he lives within us. For the Christian, any ego-enhancing thought must be recognized as the result of sin within and, as each such thought arises, we must claim Christ's victory over it. But all thoughts and desires that put the Kingdom first and all desires to confirm with God's law arise from Christ in us. So to have Christ act through us (or as us) we must put away the former desires and act on the latter until the former fade away and the latter - those arising from Christ within - become habitual. Then God can direct us to where he wants us, whether this is in the role of a wife and mother, factory worker or President of the United States.