Not me Posted August 24, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 510 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 3,178 Content Per Day: 1.46 Reputation: 3,344 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/06/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted August 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Dafydd said: You are right about not getting too hung up over relatively minor matters when there are such important things raised here. The really vital matter, as it seems to me, is to move from "Christ in me" to "Christ acting through me" (more or less = "Christ as me"). Grubb taught that God created humans to be (as it were) receptacles of God the Holy Spirit in this world. He taught that only God possessed true personhood in the absolute sense and that we are persons only through our relationship with God. Think of an analogy involving the Sun and Moon. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as moonlight; it is only sunlight reflected from the Moon and if the Sun stopped shining, the Moon would be dark and invisible. If we fantasize that the Moon could think, imagine that it becomes deluded into believing that it is generating moonlight and not just reflecting sunlight. In its mind, it has become a little sun! Similarly, in Grubb's view, human beings only (as it were) "reflect" personhood. God is the Sun and we are the Moon. But we (like the Moon in our analogy) came to think of ourselves as autonomous persons - little gods so to speak - and it was in doing this that we split ourselves away from God and sin and evil entered the world. Christian ethicist Michael Hill said that to sin is to use something for a purpose other than that for which God created it and here we see the misuse of ourselves. God created us to be receptacles of the Holy Spirit and we misused these intended receptacles as independent persons. The very core of these persons (us) is sin - "sin within" motivates us. Everything that enhances our self or ego is the root of sin. But if we are born again of the Spirit, then our inner sin has been taken to the Cross - Christ has paid the price on our behalf and now he lives within us. For the Christian, any ego-enhancing thought must be recognized as the result of sin within and, as each such thought arises, we must claim Christ's victory over it. But all thoughts and desires that put the Kingdom first and all desires to confirm with God's law arise from Christ in us. So to have Christ act through us (or as us) we must put away the former desires and act on the latter until the former fade away and the latter - those arising from Christ within - become habitual. Then God can direct us to where he wants us, whether this is in the role of a wife and mother, factory worker or President of the United States. Very correct, our position in society matters not at all. Only Christ acting through or in us. A friend of mine used to say; “it matters not the doing, only who’s doing the doing.” It’s all Christ or self, all that does not fall into one category, falls into the other. Blessings as we get as close to Christ as possible, that He might be written in our hearts that all may read. In Christ, Not me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Posted August 25, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 23 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 “it matters not the doing, only who’s doing the doing.” I like that! The Kingdom of God is a mosaic and the part we play, be it large or small, fits where God intends it to fit into the whole. There are two contrary approaches to the Kingdom on Earth. One is the theonomic post-millennialist and "manifest sons of God" approach where it is believed that the Kingdom can be brought into manifestation through the rule of Christians acting as Christ's representatives. The other extreme is the extreme pre-millennialist view where we can do nothing, where all will get worse, until Christ comes again. Both are, I believe, wrong to some degree and right to some degree. The first is correct in that we play a role in the building of the Kingdom while the second is right in leaving it all to Christ. These are only reconciled by the belief that Christ works through us; that we are not to "represent" Christ but to simply allow him to work through us. I believe that this is an urgent matter for the church at this time. Norman Grubb was used by God to emphasize this aspect of the Gospel (he did not invent the doctrine, but God enabled him to see it more clearly htan most. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted August 25, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.95 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) Hi @Dafydd, We didn't really get down to the topic of your mention of Norman Grubb. I wasn't familiar with him, and all that was posted was found online. The "manifest sons of God" however, are a different avenue of false doctrine. Do you mean to refer to this particular group? Thanks for any replies. Manifest Sons of God - religious cults, sects, and doctrines www.apologeticsindex.org/m22.html This movement is also referred to as "Joel's Army." 'Subduing the earth' means that a militant church (Joel's Army) will arise, take over and rule the world politically and spiritually. It is claimed that the 'Manifest Sons of God' will be perfected into their "glorified bodies" prior to Christ's return. Edited August 25, 2019 by BeauJangles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not me Posted August 25, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 510 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 3,178 Content Per Day: 1.46 Reputation: 3,344 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/06/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2019 54 minutes ago, Dafydd said: “it matters not the doing, only who’s doing the doing.” I like that! The Kingdom of God is a mosaic and the part we play, be it large or small, fits where God intends it to fit into the whole. There are two contrary approaches to the Kingdom on Earth. One is the theonomic post-millennialist and "manifest sons of God" approach where it is believed that the Kingdom can be brought into manifestation through the rule of Christians acting as Christ's representatives. The other extreme is the extreme pre-millennialist view where we can do nothing, where all will get worse, until Christ comes again. Both are, I believe, wrong to some degree and right to some degree. The first is correct in that we play a role in the building of the Kingdom while the second is right in leaving it all to Christ. These are only reconciled by the belief that Christ works through us; that we are not to "represent" Christ but to simply allow him to work through us. I believe that this is an urgent matter for the church at this time. Norman Grubb was used by God to emphasize this aspect of the Gospel (he did not invent the doctrine, but God enabled him to see it more clearly htan most. Christ in us, or Christ as our lives is the foundation of Christianity. Our deaths with Him and by faith walking in newness of life by reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God is the way forward for all believers. This truth and the manifestation of it has been brought forth by certain authors, but can only be received by the heart that is ready for such a truth. It will be rejected as false doctrine until the heart has been made to hate sin so much that it has come to the place where it would be willing to die rather than sin. Than this truth will bring such freedom and joy like the heart never dreamed was possible. For great is our God and awesome is the salvation purchased by Christ on the cross for us. But coming into this truth and reality is something only God can bring a believer into. So for me I have come to see that only by pointing people to their own personal relationships with Christ can this be furthered in their lives, as well as my own. For to the knowing of the Holy One is what we are called to. So to the degree we see our deaths in Christ to that degree can we walk in newness of life. This truth and this truth alone is that that will make Christ’s Bride ready for Him. Blessings to you as God works this truth deeper and deeper into your, mine and any and all hearts that would be willing to reckon themselves dead unto sin and alive unto God so they can walk in newness of life by faith. Than the scripture; “that which is not of faith is sin” Will jump out and they will know by experience the meaning of. In Christ, Not me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted August 25, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.95 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted August 25, 2019 I take it that neither of my queries about Norman Grubb or the manifest sons of God are going to be directly answered by our OP. Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Posted August 26, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 23 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 26, 2019 Hi BeauJangles, Sorry for delay, but I have been offline. I don't agree with the manifest sons of God movement but I think of them as a mistaken interpretation of the sort of idea that is suggested in the article. I think that we are moving into a phase in which THE Son of God will be manifested through his surrendered people. Norman Grubb was a very deep Christian thinker who, more clearly than most, understood the implications of Christ within. A good, and brief, introduction to his thought is the little book "Its as Simple as This" which can be found free online. Simple, but not easy! Blessings 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted August 26, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.95 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted August 26, 2019 12 minutes ago, Dafydd said: I don't agree with the manifest sons of God movement but I think of them as a mistaken interpretation of the sort of idea that is suggested in the article. I think that we are moving into a phase in which THE Son of God will be manifested through his surrendered people. Norman Grubb was a very deep Christian thinker who, more clearly than most, understood the implications of Christ within. A good, and brief, introduction to his thought is the little book "Its as Simple as This" which can be found free online. Simple, but not easy! Okay, well that clears things up nicely. Thanks for the response. God bless you. Shalom, David/BeauJangles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Posted August 26, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 23 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 26, 2019 What can I say, Not Me, to your latest but AMEN, AMEN! Please don't think me presumptuous, but I would like to ask anyone reading the article on "Christ as us and the Kingdom of God" to pass on the link to as many people as possible and to otherwise distribute it as widely as each person can. Not because it is a good article, but because I believe that it contains something of great importance which should be discussed and prayed about by as many people as possible. If the church is to avoid the opposite pitfalls of the Manifest Sons of God (or something similar) and the retreat mentality of extreme re-mill teaching, something like this approach is needed; Christ ruling through people who are completely open to him. That is what the church needs to be teaching today, for the time is right. Amen, praise God, for bringing his reward Amen, praise God for justice now restored Kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of the Lord Love has the victory forever (sung to the tune of "Marching through Georgia") Norman Grubb was led to his conclusion through a personal crisis of faith. While a missionary in Africa, he was distressed that he could not love the African people as he knew that Jesus did. So he prayed that God would grant him such love but, in effect, the answer that God gave him was for he (NG) to simply cease trying and allow the love of Jesus to flow through him. From this personal experience, he found the core of his life's mission to the wider church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted August 26, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.95 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted August 26, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Dafydd said: If the church is to avoid the opposite pitfalls of the Manifest Sons of God (or something similar) and the retreat mentality of extreme re-mill teaching, something like this approach is needed; No need to worry excessively about them. Way out cults have existed since before the days of Noah. Edited August 26, 2019 by BeauJangles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not me Posted August 26, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 510 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 3,178 Content Per Day: 1.46 Reputation: 3,344 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/06/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted August 26, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Dafydd said: What can I say, Not Me, to your latest but AMEN, AMEN! Please don't think me presumptuous, but I would like to ask anyone reading the article on "Christ as us and the Kingdom of God" to pass on the link to as many people as possible and to otherwise distribute it as widely as each person can. Not because it is a good article, but because I believe that it contains something of great importance which should be discussed and prayed about by as many people as possible. If the church is to avoid the opposite pitfalls of the Manifest Sons of God (or something similar) and the retreat mentality of extreme re-mill teaching, something like this approach is needed; Christ ruling through people who are completely open to him. That is what the church needs to be teaching today, for the time is right. Amen, praise God, for bringing his reward Amen, praise God for justice now restored Kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of the Lord Love has the victory forever (sung to the tune of "Marching through Georgia") Norman Grubb was led to his conclusion through a personal crisis of faith. While a missionary in Africa, he was distressed that he could not love the African people as he knew that Jesus did. So he prayed that God would grant him such love but, in effect, the answer that God gave him was for he (NG) to simply cease trying and allow the love of Jesus to flow through him. From this personal experience, he found the core of his life's mission to the wider church. I couldn’t agree more with your sentiment about what is lacking in the Church as a whole. But as you brought forth Mr Grubb was brought into this deepness of faith by a personal crisis of faith. This is how all believers need to enter in, by the end of themselves. There are no short cuts. We all die the same way. But ceasing from our own works and walking forward by trusting another (God). This can not be letter learned it has to be life or experienced learned..... As for me it was when I was brought to the place where I saw as plain as my face that the only way I would ever be able to stop sinning is if I were to die. Seriously and really die. I screamed at God that as long as I had life I would sin and I’d rather be punished for 40 years of sin than 50. Crying the whole time. Than in the course of about 3 days God caused my heart to see that that which I wanted was exactly what Christ purchased for me on the cross. My death. I can not tell you the joy, the peace, the Christ I met. This awesome God who took me to death with Him to free me from me....It has been about 20 years since then, I as Paul says die daily to myself and all and any circumstances. So now it is always a choice of Christ or self, which one I yield to, his servant I am. Not always perfect or complete in my yielding but God has promised to perfect that which concerns me. So with a heart full of hope and faith I look to Christ in all things and trust His love for me and for all. As righteous behavior is that thing alone I look for in all my goings in and goings out. But yes this teaching is that that is most necessary but this can only be brought to life by God Himself in those hearts that have been made ready to receive. But as I’m sure you have discovered that what were discussing is the difference between being a Mary and a Martha. One serving God after the flesh the other after the Spirit. But both were serving God to the best that they understood...So yes this teaching is the teaching of teaching as far as a believer being made free from sin and walking in newness of life... So to any and all hearts constantly is this teaching to be presented, so as Paul said with a small change, that some might see and be set free from themselves. Be blessed in Christ as God digs this truth deeper and deeper into all the hearts that would be willing. Not me Edited August 26, 2019 by Not me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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