Why Yeshua & not Jesus!

[Justin Adams]

3 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

I'd personally accept the writings of the early church fathers over modern scholarship though. Modern scholars who are "wise" enough to think there are two Isaiahs or multiple authors of the Torah. 

I think such writings are a great insight into the past and worthy for serious consideration but not necessarily "gospel" for faith adjustment. 

With just a very few exceptions, I think you are correct. In my mind, view with extreme suspicion any 'doctrine' or idea after AD 150

[saved34]

1 hour ago, Tzephanyahu said:

I'd personally accept the writings of the early church fathers over modern scholarship though.

@Tzephanyahu I don’t know why you would do that. Even when the Apostles were alive false teachers and wolves had infiltrated the local Christian body of believers. Many of today’s heresies come from those early errors.

Just like back then, God has his men and women who can help build up his body and help us all grow. We have great scholars today. 

They were no better back then than they are now. It is the same God in them all doing his own will, and it is the same devil whispering false doctrines in the ears of all those who would listen.

[Tzephanyahu]

@saved34

Well, that's why I wrote 'personally'. 

[George]

3 hours ago, Tigger56 said:

Sorry, but seems like you are using Barnabas as scripture. In the review of it, it definitely is not in unity with scripture. I never see in scripture where the apostles ever "kept" the first day of the week as their worship day.

Actually, if you study out the Church Fathers, you'll see OVER and OVER again how they worshiped on the "Lord's Day".  It's not a one time instance, it's actually repeated dozens upon dozens of times.

For example the Diadache, which is dated before 100 AD says this,

On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure; 

In the book of Acts, we have Paul preaching ... 

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

1 Cor. 16:2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.

... it seems that the Corinth church gathered together every 1st day of the week.

The idea of the Lord's day is found in the book of Revelation as well.

Rev. 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.

The point of the discussion was not to "debate" which day to worship ... I was simply showing that the Lord's day was commonly used in the 1st century and predates when Constantine "ordained" Sunday as the day of worship.  

The idea that if you "worship" Jesus on Sunday and this is "heretical" is suggesting that the entire 1900 years prior to the late 1900's ... are all in error and believed a "wrong Jesus" is a very long stretch.  

This was the point I was trying to point out. 

God bless,

George

[George]

This is a quote from the early Church Historian Eusebius.

Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, Chapter 23 (c. 315 A.D.)

"The churches throughout the rest of the world observe the practice that has prevailed from apostolic tradition until the present time, so that it would not be proper to terminate our fast on any other but the day of the resurrection of our Savior. Hence there were synods and convocations of the bishops on this question; and all unanimously drew up the ecclesiastical decree, which they communicated to all the churches in all places, that the mystery of our Lords resurrection should be celebrated on no other day than the Lords day."

As I said before, the real issue isn't the day of worship as Paul told the Colosse church as he said, 

Col 2:16  Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 
Col 2:17  These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 

The real essence of the matter is comprehending what TRUE REST is, as the Lord describes in Hebrews 4.

Heb 4:1  Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.

What is this REST?  Is it based on a "day" or based on His finished work?   Because right now, if you've not entered into His Rest ... then you're missing out on what He's already done for us! 

God bless,

George

[Tigger56]

3 hours ago, George said:

Actually, if you study out the Church Fathers, you'll see OVER and OVER again how they worshiped on the "Lord's Day".  It's not a one time instance, it's actually repeated dozens upon dozens of times.

For example the Diadache, which is dated before 100 AD says this,

On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure; 

In the book of Acts, we have Paul preaching ... 

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

1 Cor. 16:2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.

... it seems that the Corinth church gathered together every 1st day of the week.

The idea of the Lord's day is found in the book of Revelation as well.

Rev. 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.

The point of the discussion was not to "debate" which day to worship ... I was simply showing that the Lord's day was commonly used in the 1st century and predates when Constantine "ordained" Sunday as the day of worship.  

The idea that if you "worship" Jesus on Sunday and this is "heretical" is suggesting that the entire 1900 years prior to the late 1900's ... are all in error and believed a "wrong Jesus" is a very long stretch.  

This was the point I was trying to point out. 

God bless,

George

Sorry but disagree. Diadache, I will not respond to as it is not from scripture. Your first scripture Act 20:7, When they came together for a meal to break bread (likely supper or Sabbath evening. No meal name is given but based on the fact that Paul's habit throughout scripture was to meet on the Sabbath it would reasonably be supper. This means in the evening of the Sabbath, after sundown it does become the first day of the week, he was preaching to them that evening before he departed. This was not his norm but wanted to teach before he made his arduous journey on sunday, or first day of the week which was a day that he could travel without breaking the Sabbath.

 

I Cor. 16: 2,  since collecting goods to take with him with be equivalent to work it was picked up on the first day of the week since it is okay to work on that day and not on the Sabbath. There is not mention of a worship service. Truthfully, George, no disrespect but it is like picking straws when you have a mountain of evidence for the Sabbath.

 

Your final verse, Rev 1:10, once again no mention of a worship service. The Lord's Day or Day of the Lord does not refer to sunday worship it actually refers to the Day of the Lord, You will find many references to it, some are I Corinthians 1:8, II Peter 3:10, Acts 2:20 and the list goes on. 

[JustPassingThru]

11 hours ago, Betha said:

I agree, but it still requires our actions to carry out the prompting of the Spirit, change does not happen apart from our actual participation.

You are correct Bertha, it does require action on our part, what you don't see is it's not physical acts, but rather just ONE spiritual act, ....to relinquish all authority of ruling, guiding, directing my life to the Holy Spirit and let Him work through me...

11 hours ago, Betha said:

To me it looks more like DEPENDING on the Lord than resting which suggests idleness or accomplishment

You said it dear one, ...that's it EXACTLY, ...why don't you give it a try? 

Idleness????? To bad you can't follow me around just one day, the Holy Spirit gives me work to accomplish that's takes up 10-11 hours a day, including most Saturdays and some holidays, ...what am I accomplishing??? ...I'm the only Bible my bosses, ...and my wife's family and friends will ever read.

We are in a spiritual war 24/7 as long as we are here on this ball of dirt, we are NOT fighting for victory, ...we are fighting from victory, ...what has the Lord given us, what sustains us in this war, ......resting in His Grace and Peace!

Without understanding what His Grace has accomplished for us we will be constantly working for His Peace, ...all to no avail, ...we won't experience the Peace of God that goes beyond human understanding with out first receiving and appropriating His Grace into our lives.

Here is what I have observed in the lives of the Sabbath followers in my wife's family, the have one day of rest, the first day of the week, the next five days they are preparing for the seventh day so that they can rest on that day, but then they are so tired from all of the work that have done during the week, ...it's not a day of rest for them because of all of the programs and activities they have during the day, ...hence, why I said they rest on the first day of the week. 

Myself, I rest on the first day of the week, spending time with my Lord in Bible Study and worship, ...relaxing, because, ...remember, ...I gave all authority to the Holy Spirit to guide my Life, ...He tells me to relax and just rest up for the work He will be giving me in the upcoming week. 

Sabbath observers work towards rest, ...whereas I go to work from rest.

Lord bless 

  

 

[George]

1 minute ago, Betha said:

We have Scripture, the Word of God to adhere to....why not let HIM speak ?  

The problem is the association of a "Sunday" Jesus to heresy and basically saying all believers who carried the torch of the gospel for the past 1900+ years were heretics ... and now suddenly in these last 50 years when "Shabbat" has entered the circle of theology once again ... that Yeshua has suddenly come around to save now that we're worshiping on the right day, with the right name.  

Do you realize that sounds "cultish"?   This is exactly how cults get formed.

Yeshua is bigger than a "name" -- bigger than a "day" -- Yeshua is everything in whom was given pre-eminence (Colossians 1) ... and through Him all things exist! (John 1)

Personally I celebrate Shabbat -- as I'm looking toward Shabbat every week when I can reflect on resting in Him and His finished work!  I also celebrate the first day of the week -- as a celebration of the 8th day -- not as the 1st day -- but rather an 8th day celebration of His Resurrection, His Ascension, and finally looking toward the 8th millennium when the New Jerusalem comes down. 

When Yeshua came he dealt with the HEART issue of the commandments.  For example, Yeshua  dealt with the issue of adultery ... if you even LOOK to lust ... you've committed adultery!   He was dealing with the heart of the Torah.  So whenever I look at the Torah ... I believe you have to pray and ask for guidance and ask the Lord ... what is the HEART of the commandment ... what are you trying to tell me Abba?   How do I apply this to my life?

The commandment of Shabbat was for US -- NOT FOR HIM!  It was for US!   The heart of the commandment was to REST in HIM -- to REST in His finished work -- to REST in His Love, His Joy and His Peace.   To simply set aside a day ... make an appointment for yourself -- to say Abba, I'm purposely setting myself apart from the cares of this life for a day, and I'm choosing to set it aside to REST in your goodness.  

What is the heart of the matter?    This is what I've been trying to get to ... 

[Debp]

1 hour ago, George said:

to REST in HIM -- to REST in His finished work -- to REST in His Love, His Joy and His Peace. 

Basically the above says it all.   Because we have believed, we can enter His rest.   We have ceased striving to earn salvation.   Having His rest is a daily blessing to me.

[Debp]

9 minutes ago, Betha said:

The heart of the matter is what we are all trying to get to, George. In my view it can only be done through God's Grace and our obedience to His instructions.....all must work out our own salvation....if they want to do different that is their choice.

You and many others rely on resting in the 'finished work on the cross' precious as far as it goes, but God's work with man is NOT FINISHED YET as I understand....hence more to learn in and with the Lord until all has been accomplished  and we have endured to the end.

I think you have mistaken ideas about us....you seem to think our lives do not reflect Christ or good fruit.   Just because we are resting in the Lord doesn't mean we are failures in our spiritual lives.