Jump to content
IGNORED

'Creationism' and 'Intelligent Design' are inherently NOT disciplines


A Christian 1985

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  15
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  5,731
  • Content Per Day:  3.64
  • Reputation:   3,522
  • Days Won:  12
  • Joined:  11/27/2019
  • Status:  Offline

46 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

You are right - I do not believe a literal interpretation is the best treatment of Genesis 1-3. You asked for evidence of figurative language and I provided those very clear examples to you.

We could go around and around, each defending our points of view, but I don't think that is a good use of my time and likely not yours, either. I do believe it is important to address something you mentioned in your first post (and why I felt the need to engage): 

I believe that you and I would agree very strongly on the important themes from Genesis 1-3, even though we clearly disagree on some relatively insignificant details. Take a look at my list of themes and let me know if there is anything you disagree with, or if you think there is critical doctrine that I have omitted.

1.  God is the Creator of all things.

2.  Humanity is the pinnacle of God's creation.

3.  God specially-created humanity (through a literal Adam and Eve) with the ability to commune with Him.

4.  God ordained the unity of Adam and Eve together.

5.  Adam and Eve chose to rely on their own wisdom and/or intuition to make a choice in defiance of God's instructions.

6.  This rebellious sin broke the connection of humanity to God.

7.  God promised a solution for this broken relationship in a prophetic glimpse of the coming Jesus Christ.

Clearly, the Bible teaches much more on the work of Jesus Christ to offer the repair of that relationship in individual lives, but that is not part of Genesis 1-3.

I dare hope that you will find it possible that someone that is a Christ follower can also accept that God created living things through the process of evolution.

I would disagree slightly with the wording of point 5.  Eve was deceived, believing the serpent's lies, rather than what God had said.  Adam rebelled but was not deceived.

I would certainly not accuse you of not being a follower of the Lord; but evolution of one kind to another is incompatible with Christianity.  In fact, there are many reasons why macro evolution is incompatible with Christianity, e.g. the testimony of the Bible is that, once God had finished creating, he pronounced it "very good", which is completely at odds with millions of years of death, disease, predation and suffering, supposedly culminating in the production of man, by evolution; another point is that the Bible says that death came by sin; but evolution has death right from the start and long before man ever existed.

I used to believe in evolution; but it was my realisation that it is impossible, initially due to irreducible complexity, that was one of the early stages leading up to me getting saved.  I now firmly believe that genuine Christians, who still believe in evolution, have areas of cognitive dissonance.  They do not realise that long-age evolution undermines the gospel and is utterly incompatible with it.  I can understand this, given that we are bombarded with evolutionary propaganda, from all sides, from primary school upwards; but surely there must be some conviction about it, in the hearts of genuine Christians.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  6
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,249
  • Content Per Day:  3.00
  • Reputation:   2,291
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  05/03/2020
  • Status:  Offline

I would certainly not accuse you of not being a follower of the Lord; but evolution of one kind to another is incompatible with Christianity.  In fact, there are many reasons why macro evolution is incompatible with Christianity, e.g. the testimony of the Bible is that, once God had finished creating, he pronounced it "very good", which is completely at odds with millions of years of death, disease, predation and suffering, supposedly culminating in the production of man, by evolution; another point is that the Bible says that death came by sin; but evolution has death right from the start and long before man ever existed.

Out of curiosity, Answers in Genesis is effectively going down the route of evolutionary changes except within the typical YEC timeframe. Granted they are calling the progenitor creatures as early common kinds (i.e. dog, cat, etc) from which they further speciated into the varieties we see today. This had to have occurred in the last 4500 years. One wonders how they make what becomes an essentially arbitrary cutoff for the various kinds.

I am not ascribing this view to you as I don't want to assume you agree with AiG in this matter. I guess the point is that even the main organization dedicated to YEC realizes that they can't get all the animals in the ark, they recognize that speciation and adaptation and modification have to occur.

I used to believe in evolution; but it was my realisation that it is impossible, initially due to irreducible complexity, that was one of the early stages leading up to me getting saved.  I now firmly believe that genuine Christians, who still believe in evolution, have areas of cognitive dissonance.  They do not realise that long-age evolution undermines the gospel and is utterly incompatible with it.  I can understand this, given that we are bombarded with evolutionary propaganda, from all sides, from primary school upwards; but surely there must be some conviction about it, in the hearts of genuine Christians.

My study and practice in geology has led me to absolutely no doubt about the age of the earth being far older than the Ussher date of 6000 years old.  I already mentioned that biology is not my area of expertise, but I don't have problems with evolution as the leading theory of biological diversity on the earth.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  5,240
  • Content Per Day:  2.14
  • Reputation:   1,356
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

I would disagree slightly with the wording of point 5.  Eve was deceived, believing the serpent's lies, rather than what God had said.  Adam rebelled but was not deceived.

Good point - yes, Eve was deceived. She did however choose her own way, based on what she understood, rather than listen to God's instruction.

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

I would certainly not accuse you of not being a follower of the Lord; but evolution of one kind to another is incompatible with Christianity.

I'm glad to hear the first part. I disagree with the second. Christianity is not about believing in what "kinds" can or cannot do over time. Additionally, there is not a single word of the Bible that indicates that "kinds" cannot change over time.

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

another point is that the Bible says that death came by sin; but evolution has death right from the start and long before man ever existed.

Spiritual death came from sin. God told Adam that if he ate of the tree, "that day" he would surely die. You and I both know Adam did not physically die on that day, so the death could not refer to a physical one.

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

I used to believe in evolution; but it was my realisation that it is impossible

Please recognize the difference between opinion and fact. It is certainly not impossible, you just do not believe it to be possible.

 

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

I can understand this, given that we are bombarded with evolutionary propaganda, from all sides, from primary school upwards; but surely there must be some conviction about it, in the hearts of genuine Christians.

I was exposed to a great deal of YEC propaganda growing up, and over the period of about a decade, my introduction into scientific evidence showed me that what I was once taught about young earth creationism was flat-out wrong.

There are a lot of things that the Holy Spirit convicts me about - what I believe to be a beautiful work God set into motion over the span of billions of years is not one of those things.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  27
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,983
  • Content Per Day:  0.66
  • Reputation:   958
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/20/2003
  • Status:  Offline

On 5/29/2020 at 10:06 AM, David1701 said:

Molecules to man evolution is completely incompatible with Christianity. 

Since God says that the earth brought forth living things, it's obviously true that non-living matter gave rise to life.

On 5/29/2020 at 10:06 AM, David1701 said:

There is no scientific mechanism that can explain how the first life came to be (even atheistic evolutionists acknowledge this).

God says living things came from non-living matter.   I agree.   It's notable that the more research is done, the more it looks like God was right.

On 5/29/2020 at 10:06 AM, David1701 said:

There is no scientific mechanism by which irreducibly complex parts of organisms can be built up over millions of years.

It's called "mutation and natural selection."   Such irreducible complexity has been observed to evolve.   Would you like to learn about that?

On 5/29/2020 at 10:06 AM, David1701 said:

There is no scientific mechanism by which the massive increases in genetic information, required for molecules to man evolution, could come about (mutations cause damage and do not increase information).

You've been misled about that.   Every new mutation in a population increases information.    How do you think "information" is determined?   And new genetic information can come about mutation generally, by gene duplication, and by mutation of non-coding DNA to become functional genes.   Would you like to see the evidence for that?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  15
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  5,731
  • Content Per Day:  3.64
  • Reputation:   3,522
  • Days Won:  12
  • Joined:  11/27/2019
  • Status:  Offline

19 hours ago, one.opinion said:

Good point - yes, Eve was deceived. She did however choose her own way, based on what she understood, rather than listen to God's instruction.

I'm glad to hear the first part. I disagree with the second. Christianity is not about believing in what "kinds" can or cannot do over time. Additionally, there is not a single word of the Bible that indicates that "kinds" cannot change over time.

Spiritual death came from sin. God told Adam that if he ate of the tree, "that day" he would surely die. You and I both know Adam did not physically die on that day, so the death could not refer to a physical one.

Please recognize the difference between opinion and fact. It is certainly not impossible, you just do not believe it to be possible.

 

I was exposed to a great deal of YEC propaganda growing up, and over the period of about a decade, my introduction into scientific evidence showed me that what I was once taught about young earth creationism was flat-out wrong.

There are a lot of things that the Holy Spirit convicts me about - what I believe to be a beautiful work God set into motion over the span of billions of years is not one of those things.

There is no point in us going round and round in circles, so this will be last reply on this topic.

Six Literal Days of Creation
---------------------

1) The Hebrew word "yom" (day), when modified by a number, is ALWAYS used of a literal day (over 400 times, in the OT).

2) The phrase, literally, "evening was and morning was" is used over 60 times outside Gen. 1 and ALWAYS refers to a literal day.

3) In Gen. 1:5, "day" is coupled with "night". This occurs over 50 times, outwith Gen. 1, and ALWAYS refers to part of a literal day.

4) Sabbath observance, in the OT, (the literal seventh day of the week) was because God created in six literal days and rested on the literal seventh day.

Ex. 20:8-11 (ESV)
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 

5) The Bible says that death (all kinds, not only spiritual death) came as a result of Adam's sin; but long-ages demand death, disease, predation and suffering for millions of years, before man existed, which blatantly contradicts God pronouncing everything he had made "very good", after finishing his creation (including mankind).

1 Cor. 15:20-23 (ESV)
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

N.B. This context is about PHYSICAL death and PHYSICAL resurrection from the dead.  This means that evolution (teaching death for millions of years before Adam sinned) not only undermines the reason for death but also the reason for the resurrection.

There is much more; but this will suffice to show that Christianity and evolution are COMPLETELY incompatible and that a Christian who is trying to hold both is like a man being pulled in different directions by two horses.  Such a man had better watch out that he is not pulled apart...

Edited by David1701
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  5,240
  • Content Per Day:  2.14
  • Reputation:   1,356
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

37 minutes ago, David1701 said:

There is no point in us going round and round in circles, so this will be last reply on this topic.

Agreed, the back and forth really doesn't result in anything positive after a point. I'm glad we, as brothers in Christ, could have a peaceful, respectful conversation despite our differences.

I do not dispute that the usage of yom really does suggest a 24-hour period. My contention is that a 24-hour period is symbolic in intent, and not literal. The language of Genesis 3, for example, really does suggest a real serpent. However, as you've stated, the reality is more complicated.

44 minutes ago, David1701 said:

The Bible says that death (all kinds, not only spiritual death) came as a result of Adam's sin; but long-ages demand death, disease, predation and suffering for millions of years, before man existed, which blatantly contradicts God pronouncing everything he had made "very good", after finishing his creation (including mankind).

The Bible does not say this. Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 15, as well as Romans 5, focuses only on humans. Additionally, these passages in context (good hermeneutics) juxtapose spiritual life in Jesus Christ to spiritual death due to sin. This would strongly suggest that the passages are focused on spiritual death, not physical death.

50 minutes ago, David1701 said:

There is much more; but this will suffice to show that Christianity and evolution are COMPLETELY incompatible and that a Christian who is trying to hold both is like a man being pulled in different directions by two horses.  Such a man had better watch out that he is not pulled apart...

As I mentioned previously, I left the YEC "camp" as I discovered more and more falsehood coming from that group and realized the truth of God's creation. My "two horses" are pulling in the same direction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  27
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,983
  • Content Per Day:  0.66
  • Reputation:   958
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/20/2003
  • Status:  Offline

The development of biological systems fit the thermodynamic model of magnetic domains

Ising Quantum Chain is Equivalent to a Model of Biological Evolution

E. Baake, M. Baake, and H. Wagner
Phys. Rev. Lett. 78, 559 – Published 20 January 1997

Abstract

A sequence space model which describes the interplay of mutation and selection in molecular evolution is shown to be equivalent to an Ising quantum chain. Three explicit examples with representative fitness landscapes are discussed and exactly solved with methods from statistical mechanics.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  27
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,983
  • Content Per Day:  0.66
  • Reputation:   958
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/20/2003
  • Status:  Offline

Thermodynamics of evolutionary games

Christoph Adami and Arend Hintze
Phys. Rev. E 97, 062136 – Published 20 June 2018

Abstract

How cooperation can evolve between players is an unsolved problem of biology. Here we use Hamiltonian dynamics of models of the Ising type to describe populations of cooperating and defecting players to show that the equilibrium fraction of cooperators is given by the expectation value of a thermal observable akin to a magnetization. We apply the formalism to the public goods game with three players and show that a phase transition between cooperation and defection occurs that is equivalent to a transition in one-dimensional Ising crystals with long-range interactions. We then investigate the effect of punishment on cooperation and find that punishment plays the role of a magnetic field that leads to an “alignment” between players, thus encouraging cooperation. We suggest that a thermal Hamiltonian picture of the evolution of cooperation can generate other insights about the dynamics of evolving groups by mining the rich literature of critical dynamics in low-dimensional spin systems.

It appears that the universe was created to make the appearance of life by natural means, inevitable.

Edited by The Barbarian
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...