Who gets the final say?

[lftc]

Greetings to all!

This question is intended to spark discussion of what I consider to be an important subject.  Naturally, I have an opnion on the subject, but that does not mean I want to pose a question so that I can answer it (although there really is nothing wrong with that).  I want to see how other people process this subject.

The question: Who gets the final say on issues of understanding scriptures?  Said a longer way, As a person seeks to understand scriptures, and comes to a difficulty, to whom should they turn and what level of confidence should they place in that source?

For example, In Jesus time we have:

• the various sect groups  - the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, etc
• the positional authorities - the High Priest, the Sanhedrin, the Scribes, the Lawyers, etc
• the rest of the people
• the spiritual realm

That is just an example to frame the question.  I am interested to know how you think about this question when you come across a difficulty in the scriptures.  Do you refer to other authorities and how do you decide who to quote?

Please do not take this topic off topic by debating doctrinal points that may be brought up to illustrate an answer to the question.

Again the question:
Who gets the final say on issues of understanding scriptures?
Do you refer to other authorities and how do you decide who to quote?

lftc

[Justin Adams]

Interesting idea. To me, and I am probably not normal, I just write from what I know with fair certainty is correct. Just off the top of my head. I have learned from others, but for me that is a very long road well traveled. My world view is in my fingers and thus I speak. It might be an inspired memory of just a vague thought. But I believe all words have meanings so a careful choice is always the best way to go. Second-hand thought is not my stock in trade. I have to 'buy into' something lock, stock and barrel before passing it on. Thus we arrive at a world view and like ALL dogmas and doctrines, they are a work in progress and change frequently. My world-view is, I hope, centering on God, His Council of heavenly beings and His aims, goals and progress towards His already stated objectives. As an IMAGER of God, I hope to portray a little of Him using Yeshua as a daily example of how to conduct myself. Thus this, in a nutshell, is the way I do things.
To answer the OP, God gets the final say.

[unworthyservant]

1 hour ago, lftc said:

I am interested to know how you think about this question when you come across a difficulty in the scriptures.  Do you refer to other authorities and how do you decide who to quote?

For myself, when I find something that could become a quandary, I like to check as many reliable commentaries on the subject as required to better understand the issue, but rely on Faith that God will lead me to the correct answer. He usually does and on the occasions that He doesn't I just figure that He feels it's not necessary for me to have that answer at this point, so no worries when I don't know or can't figure out a thing.  

[Pekoudah]

1 hour ago, lftc said:

Greetings to all!

This question is intended to spark discussion of what I consider to be an important subject.  Naturally, I have an opnion on the subject, but that does not mean I want to pose a question so that I can answer it (although there really is nothing wrong with that).  I want to see how other people process this subject.

The question: Who gets the final say on issues of understanding scriptures?  Said a longer way, As a person seeks to understand scriptures, and comes to a difficulty, to whom should they turn and what level of confidence should they place in that source?

For example, In Jesus time we have:

• the various sect groups  - the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, etc
• the positional authorities - the High Priest, the Sanhedrin, the Scribes, the Lawyers, etc
• the rest of the people
• the spiritual realm

That is just an example to frame the question.  I am interested to know how you think about this question when you come across a difficulty in the scriptures.  Do you refer to other authorities and how do you decide who to quote?

Please do not take this topic off topic by debating doctrinal points that may be brought up to illustrate an answer to the question.

Again the question:
Who gets the final say on issues of understanding scriptures?
Do you refer to other authorities and how do you decide who to quote?

lftc

The authority rests with the witness of the Spirit. In the early church signs and wonders accompanied the truth. These signs are still there but have been attenuated so that only the careful can perceive them.

 

Jesus said.."My sheep know My voice"  So then the inner witness of Christ in us will tell us which way to go and what is of Him or not. If we don't have that inner witness of the truth...then there is really no other way other than observe the fruit of the person speaking.

[GandalfTheWise]

1 hour ago, lftc said:

I am interested to know how you think about this question when you come across a difficulty in the scriptures.  Do you refer to other authorities and how do you decide who to quote?  Who gets the final say on issues of understanding scriptures?  Do you refer to other authorities and how do you decide who to quote?

[EDIT: Reformatted and selectively quoted sections]

I started off in pretty much the same place most evangelicals are taught to start and that is with a combination of Proverbs 25:2 (It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings. Prov 25:2 NIV) , Matthew 5:18 (For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  Matt 5:18 NIV), Matt 13:35 (So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”  Matt 13:35 NIV), and II Tim 3:16-17 (All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.  II Tim 3:16-17 NIV) as the basis for Bible study.   This meant I was looking for deep and hidden truths that I was convinced God had placed in every word and phrase in the Bible.  It also meant that I was a proof text addict.  I looked to the tiniest detail to determine what God was saying.   I tended to evaluate teachers and others by the same sort of standards.  I saw the purpose of Bible study to arrive at a clear systematic understanding of God's truth.

Now, my view of scripture is that if God thinks something is important He will say it over and over again very clearly.  If something only shows up in one or two places and is somewhat ambiguous, there is probably nothing critical hidden in there.   Those things that are very clear and that pretty much every Christian agrees on are likely the essential things all Christians should believe.  Those things that are less clear and many Christians disagree over are probably not essentials.   I now see the purpose of Bible study as to learn more about God.

I now consider visible fruit I can observed in people's lives much more highly than I used to.  Genuine long-term fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, etc. from Gal 5:22-23), a person's long term pattern of living over years and decades, and the general observation of the interactions between believers in a wide range of churches and ministries are things that cannot be easily counterfeited.  I used to decide who was a "good" Christian and which churches were doctrinally "sound" by how much I agreed with them on a variety of topics.  Now I decide this more based on the fruit I see.  God had me walk a path where I spend many years in each of a variety of churches and ministries with a range of beliefs.  That pattern I saw was that things which plainly appeared in scripture many places were all agreed upon by this range of believers.  Disagreements were from the things that required "correct" interpretation of isolated verses and a particular set of proof texts to prove why one group of Christians was right and the other was wrong.  I also noticed that it was those things that Christians disagreed on which many Christians believed made them and their church better than other churches.  I've spent decades watching Christians and churches with similar levels of fruit that cannot in good conscience fellowship with other Christians over what they think a particular verse says.    So bottom line is that I've come to think of things from the standpoint of essential to believe or non-essential.  The essentials are pretty obvious and usually mostly agreed on by most mature and fruitful Christians.  The non-essentials are the things that get debated.

So, bottom line is that I look to many Christians with a wide range of viewpoints whose maturity, wisdom, and spiritual life I most respect.  On points where they all tend to agree, I have more confidence in those points.  On points where there is a range of opinion, I may or may not hold a tentative opinion, but I try not to let that point affect my relationship with anyone.

[Jayne]

First of all for me, God has the final say.  His own scripture explains scripture.  Hard scriptures?  Pray to God to explain them to you.  Ask the Holy Spirit to bring understanding.

Second of all, other people I highly respect in terms of how they live they way they talk - bearing out scriptures in their own lives.  I like those people and enjoy it in my church when they have leadership positions in study classes.

Third, there are a few commentators I enjoy, but am adamant not to trust every jot and tittle that they say.  They, like me, are fallible.

There is not an organization authority  - now this is my own opinion - that has Biblical authority as a body politic over what the Bible means.

For example, I belong to a Southern Baptist Church.  But the Southern Baptist Convention, for me, has no authority to interpret scripture and tell SBC to teach as they say.

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Jayne

[Behold]

2 hours ago, lftc said:

Greetings to all!

This question is intended to spark discussion of what I consider to be an important subject.  Naturally, I have an opnion on the subject, but that does not mean I want to pose a question so that I can answer it (although there really is nothing wrong with that).  I want to see how other people process this subject.

The question: Who gets the final say on issues of understanding scriptures?  Said a longer way, As a person seeks to understand scriptures, and comes to a difficulty, to whom should they turn and what level of confidence should they place in that source?

For example, In Jesus time we have:

• the various sect groups  - the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, etc
• the positional authorities - the High Priest, the Sanhedrin, the Scribes, the Lawyers, etc
• the rest of the people
• the spiritual realm

That is just an example to frame the question.  I am interested to know how you think about this question when you come across a difficulty in the scriptures.  Do you refer to other authorities and how do you decide who to quote?

Please do not take this topic off topic by debating doctrinal points that may be brought up to illustrate an answer to the question.

Again the question:
Who gets the final say on issues of understanding scriptures?
Do you refer to other authorities and how do you decide who to quote?

lftc

The reason people are confused about the Scriptures is because they were not taught correctly when they were first saved, and soon they were led into anti-scriptural man made theology that became their's.

And someone says........"so, what is it then that a babe in Christ needs to understand before they start worrying about "tongues", "the infilling" "the baptism with the Holy Spirit".."mid trib, pre-trib, no-trib", and all the rest of the rabbit trails that tie up years of a Christian's life, in a meaningless way "? ???????

Very simple.     A baby has to crawl before he can stand before they can walk before they can run before they can bike before they can drive.

You drink MILK before you eat MEAT, when you are a developing baby <> child.

A Christian has to start the same way, and if this is not completely understood in the very beginning of your Christian Life, then your Christian life will be scripturally upside down and off the track, until you get the revelation of how God teaches by revelation, about Himself,  about His Son, and about His word.

You have probably read this or heard this phrase....."Rightly Divide".    So, to rightly divide the word of God means to FIRST understand that you have to do this CORRECTLY, understanding that there is a spiritual method to understanding the scriptures that has to be observed and followed.

So,  what are the 2 things  that are the Keys that unlock the NT and how to understand the principle doctrines of the NT.?

Its just 2 things that are the essential milk that you have to ingest, comprehend, and regard.

1.)  You heart has to be established with GRACE.   Here is the verse.   Hebrews 13:9     And when you read it, you'll note that there is a clear and present warning about what happens to every single person who tries to discern the word of God, if you DONT get your heart established with Grace, FIRST.    Its says there are all sorts of doctrines, and people get "carried away" with them to their own hurt.   And you see this all over forums, all over denominations.   And its simply because the Leader or the person, never understood early in their spiritual development the first principle of the GRACE of God and what this means, causes, does, and completes in you.

2.)  You have to come to the revelation that Paul is literally  your NT teacher.  The Holy Spirit will reveal what PAUL Teaches, first, and that is a MUST HAVE if you are ever going to discern rightly, the New Testament.  Paul is the chosen one, whom Jesus took apart from all the other apostles and personally taught him the doctrines for the body of Christ.   So, you must study the letters of Paul to GET the revelation of Grace, and Hebrews 13:9, as they are joined and are revealed as ONE.

So, you have to start there, and if you have not, then you are going to have nothing but confusion and opinion regarding the New Testament.  And what will happen, is that you will end up in life and on forums, convinced that you can lose your salvation, and you'll become a Galatians 1:8 scripture twisting Legalist, who does nothing for God and only lives on forums like this one trying to confuse and misrepresent the New Testament.

If you are going to be a real student of the word then you have to study Paul's teaching on Grace, very carefully.  You absolutely must get the revelation of "justification by faith", completely understood and trusted,  in your own heart.

The Law came by Moses.  Grace and Truth came by Jesus The Christ.    The revelation of the Grace of God, came from Paul's epistles.

If you sincerely want God to open the eye(s) of your understanding so that you begin to master the New Testament, then you have to start with doing what Hebrews 13:9 teaches, and then you have to study Paul's letters.

If you'll do this, if you will study Paul's epistles, and build your belief system on Hebrews 13:9,  then God will open the NT to your inner man as you continue to study to show yourself approved.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Behold

[missmuffet]

God gets the final say. His word is in the Bible to be read literally for which He has intended. The words are not to be added or deleted. In the Bible God has given His instructions on how He wants us to serve Him. At the Bema seat Judgment all Christians will be judged. We will be judged on how well we served Him and the correct interpretation of the Holy Bible has a lot to do with that. 

[BeauJangles]

3 hours ago, lftc said:

The question: Who gets the final say on issues of understanding scriptures?  

For example, In Jesus time we have:

• the various sect groups  - the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, etc
• the positional authorities - the High Priest, the Sanhedrin, the Scribes, the Lawyers, etc
• the rest of the people
• the spiritual realm

Our Lord wasn't all that fond of these resources. 

Matthew 23:13 ¹³But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:23-31 ²³Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. ²⁴Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. ²⁵Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. ²⁶Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. ²⁷Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. ²⁸Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. ²⁹Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, ³⁰And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. ³¹Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Luke 18:1-2 ¹And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; ²Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

Luke 18:11 ¹¹The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.  

Edited August 24, 2019 by BeauJangles

[lftc]

5 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Our Lord wasn't all that fond of these resources.

Hi BeauJangles!

BTW, I like your screen name.

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my original post.  The incomplete list of resources I gave was for during the time of Christ.  I was not asking about those resources.  I was giving that as an example one might quote if one lived at that time.  I was interested in what process you use to decide about scriptural issues that are tricky or complex or unclear.  Reading through the posts that are prior to this one shows great responses from people. 

I've read your posts on other topics and am interested in your thought process here.

Thanks Brother, and sorry I was not clear.

lftc