Question about law

[simplejeff]

On 9/1/2019 at 11:09 AM, lftc said:

If you look at the various definitions of Law one sees a fairly consistent definition that I would summarize as a system of rules that IS ENFORCED through penalty.

Perhaps you could show in the Bible where the TORAH is ENFORCED through penalty ?  (OT and NT) 

I do not believe it is.

[Blood Bought 1953]

1 minute ago, lftc said:

Fabulous mental picture, floaties.  I think you mean those things people put on the arms of their babies.  I don't know what you look like, so I substitute someone like Buster Keaton floating along with a wistful look on his face.  I assume you have seen Buster Keaton in your country, since you speak english.

I agree with where you end up - on the good side of the pool, where Daddy waits.  For some, though, the question of the Law is significant because of the things Jesus said.  So my question was about what Laws are important to them.  From your answer, I think you would say none?

 

People try to pick and choose when it comes to Law.They wind up becoming “ Harpies” that go on and on and try to peddle guilt to God’s Grace covered Children.A person not given to drink will usually use that as their Hobby Horse” to condemn that poor soul that has to struggle with it.The Law is all or nothing. Break one and you are guilty of breaking them all.

Thanks for your support of that “ floaty” analogy. I had just woken up when I wrote that,and I have learned the hard way that what looks good when you first wake up sometimes looks dumb later on in the day .I did not care for that Buster Keaton comparison......of course I know who he was and what he looked like.Are you familiar with The Three Stooges? In my future analogies , when you picture BB- think “ Larry”. We are both Hunks! Lol......

[lftc]

28 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

And what are His Commands? Definitely NOT the 613 Given to the Jews by Moses—- Those Laws were give to shut us up and take us to our Savior. Have those impossible to keep Laws done their job and shut you up about them yet? There are only two Laws now Given to us by Jesus.I always had trouble memorizing 613 of anything ! Even a senile old coot like me can remember two  ,though.BELIEVE and LOVE.See how simple Christianity is at its core ?

Again, my dear floaties man, you have said it well.

But many might point to other things Jesus said about the law and other things that read like commands.  I think your statement here has great value as it is a true statement of faith - You trust Jesus to save you from the punishments of the Law and worse.  And that honest and accurate fear of the consequences of transgression brought you to seek Jesus.  As you put it in the floaty post, you made it out of the deep water.

But some reading this may not be there yet, and may be yet struggling with an honest and desparate desire to really believe Jesus in everything he said.  Some do not see or care about the issues with the Law.  Jesus saves.  Some have deep concerns about the Law.  Jesus still saves, but their life may be one of mental torment, or they might arrive in heaven "smelling of smoke" as Paul put it, as they try to reconcile their lives with the difficulties of Jesus' words about law.  Since Jesus referenced Law, a starting place is to find out what the Law is, hence this topic.

Again, I have deepening respect for you with each post of yours that I read.

[lftc]

11 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

People try to pick and choose when it comes to Law.They wind up becoming “ Harpies” that go on and on and try to peddle guilt to God’s Grace covered Children.A person not given to drink will usually use that as their Hobby Horse” to condemn that poor soul that has to struggle with it.The Law is all or nothing. Break one and you are guilty of breaking them all.

Thanks for your support of that “ floaty” analogy. I had just woken up when I wrote that,and I have learned the hard way that what looks good when you first wake up sometimes looks dumb later on in the day .I did not care for that Buster Keaton comparison......of course I know who he was and what he looked like.Are you familiar with The Three Stooges? In my future analogies , when you picture BB- think “ Larry”. We are both Hunks! Lol......

Larry - even better - Larry with floaties!

Your reference to the alcohol issue is quite appropriate and a good illustration.  Because most people do not take the time to study the law, they don't see some of the seriously important messages God gives in it.  I would give examples on the subject of strong drink, but then people would just disregard it as if I had said it.  Instead, one should find out what the Law says about it.  This will lead honest thinkers to try to understand what Jesus meant in the sermon on the mount when he said that whoever teaches against the law is the least in the kingdom of heaven. 

Thank you for letting post at your expense.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Jesus was a Jew,humanly speaking ,and referred to the Jewish Law constantly .The Law on Steroids ! It was a prelude to get to the Heart of the matter.Jesus did not come here to preach Law-He preached Himself !  “ I “ am The Way, “ I” am the Truth,I am the Life, I am the Gate, all those that come to ME, all those that believe on ME, if you have seen ME you have seen the Father, “I” and the Father are ONE”. Jesus knew  the impossibility Of Keeping the Law would lead to despair in those that had sense( ears to hear, a gift of the Holy Spirit ) and then people  would repent ( turn to Him)  for Salvation.Jesus was laying the groundwork for The Mysteries That God kept  hidden until Paul revealed them years later.He was showing the Law- Obsessed that they needed Grace.- the Grace available to All that believed He died  for their sins and that He rose from  the grave on the third day .Once Jesus applied His Holy Blood to the Mercy Seat  in Heaven , the deal was done. The oath God took , when He swore to Himself that He would save men was officially finalized at that point and Jesu sat down.ALL the pertinent work in regard to our Salvation was dreamed up by God, sworn to by God and fulfilled by God.Its ALL about Him.He gets All the-Glory. “All” means “All”. If you don’t like God’s Plan Of where He gets all the glory and you get what’s coming to you—- Nothing —- you don’t belong in Heaven.You get the Grace- He gets the Glory.Case closed. God bless you all .

 

[lftc]

19 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Jesus was a Jew,humanly speaking ,and referred to the Jewish Law constantly .The Law on Steroids ! It was a prelude to get to the Heart of the matter.Jesus did not come here to preach Law-He preached Himself !  “ I “ am The Way, “ I” am the Truth,I am the Life, I am the Gate, all those that come to ME, all those that believe on ME, if you have seen ME you have seen the Father, “I” and the Father are ONE”. Jesus knew  the impossibility Of Keeping the Law would lead to despair in those that had sense( ears to hear, a gift of the Holy Spirit ) and then people  would repent ( turn to Him)  for Salvation.Jesus was laying the groundwork for The Mysteries That God kept  hidden until Paul revealed them years later.He was showing the Law- Obsessed that they needed Grace.- the Grace available to All that believed He died  for their sins and that He rose from  the grave on the third day .Once Jesus applied His Holy Blood to the Mercy Seat  in Heaven , the deal was done. The oath God took , when He swore to Himself that He would save men was officially finalized at that point and Jesu sat down.ALL the pertinent work in regard to our Salvation was dreamed up by God, sworn to by God and fulfilled by God.Its ALL about Him.He gets All the-Glory. “All” means “All”. If you don’t like God’s Plan Of where He gets all the glory and you get what’s coming to you—- Nothing —- you don’t belong in Heaven.You get the Grace- He gets the Glory.Case closed. God bless you all .

Well said.

[lftc]

On 8/29/2019 at 1:55 PM, lftc said:

While researching something on the internet the other day, I happened on a blog dedicated to teaching the Torah as strictly applying to the Christian.   The writer had several years of very long posts, I only browsed a few.   The writer pointed out that most Christians believe in the 10 Commandments, but that the Law of Moses does not see a difference.  I have wondered about that over the years.

Any thoughts?

As a reminder to the general populace, this topic is about the relationship of the 10 commandments to the rest of the Law.  Naturally, this may lead to branch topics and those can be very good.  This post is just to indicate the Original Post to the reader that ends up on this page.

And to invite further comments along that line.

Edited September 4, 2019 by lftc
forgot to add last line

[Tristen]

Hello lftc,

I haven't had a chance to read through the rest of the conversation - so I hope I'm not overstepping by adding my 2-cents-worth in the middle.

The Law (the list of rules including, but not limited to, the Ten Commandments) delivered to Israel through Moses, represents a covenant between God and the nation of Israel. Christians related to God through an entirely different covenant (of grace, not law), and will therefore never be held accountable to any rules contained in the Law. However, some of the rules in the Law pertain to morality (what is right and wrong). Morality doesn't change; regardless of the covenant. Moral imperatives were just as valid before the Law was written, as they were during the disposition of Law, and as they are to those of us in a disposition of grace. Therefore moral rules contained in the Law can serve as a guide to God's moral expectations (i.e. to confirm the inner conviction of the Holy Spirit) - even though we are not personally accountable to the written list of rules.

For example, regarding the Ten Commandments - most of these are moral laws. But remembering the Sabbath (Ex 20:8) is a ritual law - a repeated action pointing to the promised rest of God for those entering into fellowship with Him. Christians still consider murder and theft and idolatry (etc.) immoral - which was always the case, even before they were ever written into law by Moses. But few Christians concern ourselves with ritually keeping the Sabbath - since we have entered into God's promised rest.

At least that is how I understand it.

[lftc]

1 hour ago, Cletus said:

to me the 10 commandments fall under Gods moral law.  remember the one guy who asked Jesus what must i do to inherit eternal life and they were speaking of thou shall not steel or covet etc... the one guy summarized all that as love God and love your neighbor.  when we look at the ten commandments every one is summarized in those two commands... and its done so in Spirit.  the first of the ten is thou shall have no other Gods before me... and this is because God wants to be first, and in the NT commands love God comes first. As far as the commands in ordinances thats ceremonial stuff. 

some how some way the stuff you mentioned applies even today.  like say you referenced a mans emission during the night.  the man is more than likely lusting.  its all about the heart.  we are Gods temple.  as far as sticks on saturday... i am not sure what sticks were doing needing to be picked up but saturday is the sabbath and one is to rest on the sabbath.  the rest is in Him.  I could be wrong about that, you may need to speak to someone who knows more about the culture of the people.  what were the sticks for or was it just work.  i am just guessing it was work. 

Thanks for sharing that with me!

[lftc]

2 hours ago, Tristen said:

Hello lftc,

I haven't had a chance to read through the rest of the conversation - so I hope I'm not overstepping by adding my 2-cents-worth in the middle.

The Law (the list of rules including, but not limited to, the Ten Commandments) delivered to Israel through Moses, represents a covenant between God and the nation of Israel. Christians related to God through an entirely different covenant (of grace, not law), and will therefore never be held accountable to any rules contained in the Law. However, some of the rules in the Law pertain to morality (what is right and wrong). Morality doesn't change; regardless of the covenant. Moral imperatives were just as valid before the Law was written, as they were during the disposition of Law, and as they are to those of us in a disposition of grace. Therefore moral rules contained in the Law can serve as a guide to God's moral expectations (i.e. to confirm the inner conviction of the Holy Spirit) - even though we are not personally accountable to the written list of rules.

For example, regarding the Ten Commandments - most of these are moral laws. But remembering the Sabbath (Ex 20:8) is a ritual law - a repeated action pointing to the promised rest of God for those entering into fellowship with Him. Christians still consider murder and theft and idolatry (etc.) immoral - which was always the case, even before they were ever written into law by Moses. But few Christians concern ourselves with ritually keeping the Sabbath - since we have entered into God's promised rest.

At least that is how I understand it.

Hi Tristen, 

You definitely not overstepping anything by sharing your point of view.  That is what this topic is about. 

I like that you bring the perspective of covenant into the topic. 

If I can summarize what you stated:
- the 10 Commandments are separate from the rest of the commandments
- none of the commandments apply to Christians as they are system of Law for the people under the Old Covenant - the Jews
- The New Covenant has its basis in Grace not the system of Law
- morality is still important and the 9 of the 10 Commandments are moral rules
- the one ritual rule in the 10 commandments is no longer applicable because Christians have entered into Gods rest by being Christians.

Is that close?