Question about law

[Blood Bought 1953]

2 minutes ago, lftc said:

Thanks for sharing that with me!

 

Sticks were used for building fires....creating a spark was forbidden on the Sabbath....the application for today’s Sabbath worshippers would be dont drive because cars run off spark plugs....I wish some of the people that worship the shadow instead of the substance would take a rest from silliness,, or as Paul said “ weakness”.It is not a Salvation issue, but why be weak when you don’t have to be?

[lftc]

3 hours ago, nzkev said:

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"  and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:8-10)

God is Love And we should Reflect the Love we Receive from God

Which is where things get a little more complicated, What is Love

We get a lot of descriptions about what Love is and what Love is not , And we can build a big picture, But when God is Love I would say We can only Reflect it from him

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

⁴ Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant ⁵ or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;^{[a] 6} it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. ⁷ Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

⁸ Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Love never ends.

nzKev - thank you very much for the excellent verse from Romans and the definition of Love from 1 Corinthians. 

I like the Romans verse because it brings the context of the whole book of Romans to understanding what Jesus meant when he said the Law does not go away, and then proceeded to expand the law ("you have heard it said").  Then Paul wrote Romans to ensure that the people there understood what was being taught in the other churches in Israel, Turkey and Greece (to use modern names). Romans has Way too much to put in a post, it took Paul a lot of writing that Peter describes as hard to understand.

I agree with you, it gets complicated.  Some people try to take the path of quoting the verse that says God Is Love and then point to His promised destruction of those that reject him as love. That is where this passage from 1 Cor 13 helps us understand.  He is love, he does not rejoice with evil.  He is not willing that any should perish.

The whole passage on love is worth posting here as parts of it that are still talking about love are often ignored because they are harder to understand - such as the putting away childish things. Take Paul's persistent message (My Gospel, he calls it) and think about that as you read what he wrote about love.

12:31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. And yet I will show you the most excellent way.

13 If I speak in the tongues^[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. ² If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. ³ If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,^[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

⁴ Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. ⁵ It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. ⁶ Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. ⁷ It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

⁸ Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. ⁹ For we know in part and we prophesy in part, ¹⁰ but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. ¹¹ When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. ¹² For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

¹³ And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

--------------------

Thanks again for bringing important items to the discussion.

All that said, how do you see the 10 commandments as related to the rest of the law?  The original topic.

[lftc]

25 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Sticks were used for building fires....creating a spark was forbidden on the Sabbath....the application for today’s Sabbath worshippers would be dont drive because cars run off spark plugs....I wish some of the people that worship the shadow instead of the substance would take a rest from silliness,, or as Paul said “ weakness”.It is not a Salvation issue, but why be weak when you don’t have to be?

You are very funny - I love it - spark plugs.  You have a quick clever mind.

Blood Bought, please give people room to share their thoughts.  I assume you did not arrive at your perspective simply because people stated their perspectives to you.  You worked through the scriptures and listened to points of view and decided which ones made sense. Let's give a little room for posting here.

[lftc]

33 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

The word translated "law" is actually "teaching" so if you strip the biased translation, you can learn what God's will is for us.

Thank you for bringing into perspective that the translation issue is of significance.  It can be a tricky one, given that there are substantial issues with language in general.  For example, language is a method we use to try to transfer a concept from our mind to another human person's mind.  The words we choose to use may or may not be effective for transferring the concept.  I try to carefully choose words that move a concept across, but I don't know if the person I want to communicate with has the same understanding of the  words I want to use.  I have learned pieces of a few languages and have conversational skills in some.  One begins to see how various languages use words in various ways, not all the same in each case.  I read recently how some languages don't even use words per se, the basic building block is closer to what we think of in English as sentences.  All that to say that the understanding of the meaning of word is very important, as you allude to.  But it also is not a trivial issue and requires a cautious approach.

If I can restate your post:  The Law (using the common meaning as indicated in all these posts) is the way that God indicated what he wants people to do.  Which I take as an implication then, that you view the 10 Commandments as integral to the rest of the commandments.

Is that a reasonable thing to say?

[lftc]

6 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Perhaps you could show in the Bible where the TORAH is ENFORCED through penalty ?  (OT and NT) 

I do not believe it is.

The most common understanding of the Torah is the first 5 books of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.  Which is also commonly referred to as the Law of Moses, although many people tend to view that as starting in Exodus.  If you mean some other definition, please explain.

The books Exodus through Deuteronomy certainly include penalty.  I will leave you to read it and see for yourself as it is very important to read it.  And there are numerous instances of penalty, too many to post.  The instances of penalty are more common in Leviticus and going to the end.

Thanks!

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Thanks, but the spark plug thing came from some place else.

Apologies to you if you think I post too much. My posts increase in direct proportion to the amount of Legalism and flat- out Bible ignorance that is on display here.As long as people post things that fall into the categories of “ Jesus Saves....B U T !”........or Add to Paul’s Gospel that Saves.......or promote anything that puts one in a state of UNBELIEF by not resting in that Gospel , I’ m gonna be here like a pit bull on a poodle! Posting in here is far from the many other things I coulda be doing.I just happen to place much importance on the fact that those new to the faith do not get ruined by Judaizers and their  ilk before they can even get started on the proper, Biblical Path Of NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD.Newbies MUST recognize the Wolves That Turn Christianity into a religion.When all that come in here understand that it is TRUSTING and NOT TRYING that gets you saved , then I will slowly fade away .Meanwhile, precious souls are at stake and bad teaching Needs to be , to quote the immortal Barney Fife..... “ Nipped in the Bud”. I get no pleasure from being the “Grace Nazi” Of Worthy,but I  derive much pleasure from knowing that maybe one person out there will , with good teaching, become a “ Free Man in Christ”. I got something so good in my life, it is impossible to keep it in.To quote a favorite singer of mine ... “ I  got this thing in my heart , I got to share it today — It doesn’t live ‘til you give it away .” When George messages me and says... “BB, you are taking up all of our allotted space and you are using too many barrrels of costly computer ink”, then I will cut back.Until that day arrives...people are free to vote with their feet and avoid all things BB.

 

 

 

precious 

[Tristen]

2 hours ago, lftc said:

Hi Tristen, 

You definitely not overstepping anything by sharing your point of view.  That is what this topic is about. 

I like that you bring the perspective of covenant into the topic. 

If I can summarize what you stated:
- the 10 Commandments are separate from the rest of the commandments
- none of the commandments apply to Christians as they are system of Law for the people under the Old Covenant - the Jews
- The New Covenant has its basis in Grace not the system of Law
- morality is still important and the 9 of the 10 Commandments are moral rules
- the one ritual rule in the 10 commandments is no longer applicable because Christians have entered into Gods rest by being Christians.

Is that close?

Hey lftc,

I'd say “close”, but I'd make a few alterations.

 

“- the 10 Commandments are separate from the rest of the commandments”

I don't see any reason to separate the first Ten from the remaining rules contained in the Law. God initially gave Israel Ten Commandments, Israel rebelled, then God added another 603 to the initial Ten. They are all obligations of the same covenant between God and Israel.

 

“- morality is still important and the 9 of the 10 Commandments are moral rules

- the one ritual rule in the 10 commandments is no longer applicable because Christians have entered into Gods rest by being Christians”

None of the rules in the Law are “applicable” to Christians. The written moral rules contained in the Law simply reflect some aspects of God's eternal moral standard. That moral standard supersedes the written Law. Therefore, that moral standard doesn't change, even though the covenant containing some of the rules in writing is now “obsolete” to Christians (Hebrews 8).

It was just as morally wrong for Cain to murder Abel thousands of years before the Law, as it was for Jews to commit murder under the Law, and as it is for Christians to commit murder today.

 

[lftc]

9 hours ago, Tristen said:

Hey lftc,

I'd say “close”, but I'd make a few alterations.

 

“- the 10 Commandments are separate from the rest of the commandments”

I don't see any reason to separate the first Ten from the remaining rules contained in the Law. God initially gave Israel Ten Commandments, Israel rebelled, then God added another 603 to the initial Ten. They are all obligations of the same covenant between God and Israel.

 

“- morality is still important and the 9 of the 10 Commandments are moral rules

- the one ritual rule in the 10 commandments is no longer applicable because Christians have entered into Gods rest by being Christians”

None of the rules in the Law are “applicable” to Christians. The written moral rules contained in the Law simply reflect some aspects of God's eternal moral standard. That moral standard supersedes the written Law. Therefore, that moral standard doesn't change, even though the covenant containing some of the rules in writing is now “obsolete” to Christians (Hebrews 8).

It was just as morally wrong for Cain to murder Abel thousands of years before the Law, as it was for Jews to commit murder under the Law, and as it is for Christians to commit murder today.

 

Well written clarification!  Thanks.

[lftc]

5 hours ago, nzkev said:

I see If we reverse this and put the most important 2 comandments at the top, You wouldn't break Any comandments at all including the 10

I like to post bible verses, sorry if this comes out a bit long I didn't want to leave anything out.

Hebrews 7

 

Thank you,  nzKev.

I appreciate you posting Heb 7.  The entire book of Hevrews has forceful bearing on this subject and must be taken in context.  The foundation that the writer lays in the first chapters must be held in mind as you read the later chapters.  In fact, there are many verses in Hebrews, that when taken by themselves appear to say the opposite of what they mean if you take the context of the first chapters.  But even then, if the reader's mindset is such that they have not considered the conflict in the words of Jesus worth resolving, or the conflict in the words of Paul, then they will not have arrived at a place of understanding and could try to make some of the early statements in Hebrews fit the understanding they have arrived at already.  That is why I tend to not post too many texts as the context is critical and the context is the whole scripture.  Jesus stated that he is the way,  he also said your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and the Law is still intact.  These opposing statements must be resolved, at least for the person who is pursuing Law as their salvation or the proof of their salvation.  Remember that the Old Covenant was in force until Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law on the cross.  He did not abolish the Law, he fulfilled the requirements of the Law.  He, the perfect sacrifice, died, enabling God to bring true justice to all mankind.  Justice demands the penalty for sin, death.  It has been fulfilled, justice is complete. Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, is quite accurately saying that if you want to please God by using the Law, the only way is to obey the whole thing. 

Hebrews goes on to give us powerful examples of how we actually can please God, just like Abraham and a host of others: Faith.  Faith is word that is terribly abused. Hebrews 11 gives a good dictionary definition (the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen).  But what things?  It then shows us what things, as also the rest of the new testament, especially the miracles of Jesus also show us.  Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as rightteousness. We are assured by Paul that it is our faith that saves us.  Jesus made this the founding statement of his church: Peter says "You are the Christ"  Jesus says, on this Rock I will build my church.

I agree that understanding that perfect Love would enable you to not transgress.  But again, how is that going for you with keeping the law, either in the Mosaic Law or Jesus's expansion of it on the Mount?   I do pretty good on some things, but fail completely on others.  I don't wear the tassels on my clothing.  I have a hard time forgiving the people that have done truly horrible things to the ones I love.  I don't really love God as Love is defined in 1Cor13, I am not patient with him, I am constantly griping at him: How long will you delay?  Why have these things happened?

 

[lftc]

10 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Thanks, but the spark plug thing came from some place else.

Apologies to you if you think I post too much.

It is I that needs apologize to you.  I did not choose my words carefully.  By "room to post" I meant emotional space for people to post without fear that their thoughts will be belittled.  One of our brothers had posted something, and your post following was forcefully railing against certain types of posts.  I was concerned that the brother would be offended and would stop considering the issue.

There are times when it is called for: to be forceful.  In this topic I am trying to ensure that all voices can be heard and a gentle conversation can occur.

Post more, please!