The fulness of the Gentiles

[dhchristian]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Reformation, Lutheran 1517. (Justification by Faith)

Baptist – 1608 (Full immersion)

Methodist – 1738 (Holiness)

Pentecostal – 1906 (Baptism in the Holy Spirit)

Apostolic – 1916  (Headship Ministries - Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher, Prophet, Apostle)

Maturity - 2000 ...> (Christ the Head & His Purposes)

Great Points, and thank you for this. What is it that the Apostolic church had that we do not have that is the final piece to be restored? Unity of the Spirit

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ( Eph. 4:13)

It is the Ephesian church age that represents the Apostolic church Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; (Rev. 2:1)

What are the seven Stars, and the seven candlesticks...

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (Rev. 1:20)

Some say this Laodicean church age is the greatest failure, and it is easy to see why this is, But I think this may turn out to be the finest hour of the church age, Lord Willing. 

 

[Marilyn C]

26 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Great Points, and thank you for this. What is it that the Apostolic church had that we do not have that is the final piece to be restored? Unity of the Spirit

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ( Eph. 4:13)

It is the Ephesian church age that represents the Apostolic church Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; (Rev. 2:1)

What are the seven Stars, and the seven candlesticks...

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (Rev. 1:20)

Some say this Laodicean church age is the greatest failure, and it is easy to see why this is, But I think this may turn out to be the finest hour of the church age, Lord Willing. 

 

Hi dhchristian,

We actually do have the unity of the Holy Spirit as it is by the Holy Spirit that this is. We just have to `keep` it in our own lives, we do not bring it about.

`....endeavouring to KEEP the unity of the Spirit...` (Eph. 4: 3)

I agree that the Ephesian church represents the early Apostolic Church, however the Philadelphia Church represents the one that comes to the fullness of Christ. They are the ones who will be kept from the trial about to come on the whole earth, plus their inheritance is to rule with Christ in the highest realm. (Rev. 3: 12)

It is the unity of the faith that is the final maturing of the Body, the things we have received by the Holy Spirit of Christ`s fullness - His character, & His purposes.

`Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ( Eph. 4:13)

regards, Marilyn.

[dhchristian]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

I agree that the Ephesian church represents the early Apostolic Church, however the Philadelphia Church represents the one that comes to the fullness of Christ. They are the ones who will be kept from the trial about to come on the whole earth, plus their inheritance is to rule with Christ in the highest realm. (Rev. 3: 12)

I Will go over this when I have time, But I do disagree with this. I believe the end time church will unify all seven churches, including Laodicea, and Laodicea will be at the heart of it, despite their resistance and denial now. All of the best parts of the seven churches will be unified as a whole. If you look at the Intro's to each of the churches letters, Each has a different aspect of the Description of Christ applied to them from Revelation chapter 1. All of them Joined together form the Body of Christ. 

[The Light]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

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My point in the OP is that the fulness of the gentiles is a Quality, and not a quantity.

Your point is incorrect. I already showed you what the gathering from heaven and earth was referring to.

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That Quality is made possible by the fulness of times...

There is absolutely no scriptural basis for the things you are saying. The gathering from heaven and earth happens and then the Day of the Lord begins. The beginning of the 1000 year Day of the Lord starts with the Wrath of God. The fulness of times has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the fulness of the Gentiles.

Quote

In other words by the fact that we are living in the time of the end.

And that end will occur with the gathering from heaven and earth. Then the 1000 year Day of the Lord begins with the Wrath of God.

Quote

Unless you are a watchmen you may not see this, and how close we are to these things coming to be.

What I see is that the fulness of the Gentiles has nothing to do with the fulness of times. There are no scriptures that you can produce that say differently. You are off track. When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, the 12 tribes of Israel will see that Jesus is the Messiah. God will turn His attention to Israel and their blindness will be removed.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

²⁶ And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

²⁷ For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[dhchristian]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

What I see is that the fulness of the Gentiles has nothing to do with the fulness of times. There are no scriptures that you can produce that say differently. You are off track. When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, the 12 tribes of Israel will see that Jesus is the Messiah. God will turn His attention to Israel and their blindness will be removed.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

²⁶ And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

²⁷ For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Look at the verses you posted. When does this occur? The fulness of time happens at that time

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: (Rev. 10:6)

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18)

Both of these verses speak of the fulness of time.... Just Like when the fulness of time had come for Israel God sent forth the Messiah...

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Gal. 4:4-5)

The fulness of times is thus an expression for the end of a dispensation, in the case of the verse from Galatians it refered to the end of the dispensation of the Law and Israel which ended with the ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus as stated clearly in Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Then the dispensation of the Gentiles is completed when the fulness of times for the gentiles (Aka the church age) is completed.

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Eph 1:10)

When does this occur? Read the verses from Revelation I quoted you above... that is When, and this is when Israel will say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD". 

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Matthew 23:37-39) 

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Romans 11;12)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25)

So Here I have given you ample scriptural evidence that the fulness of times is a term that speaks of the end of a dispensation in one case the end of the dispensation of Israel when Christ came, (Gal.4:4) and a time the marks the end of the age of the gentiles, aka the dispensation of the church. Just like the Law and the prophets ended with the Ministry of John the Baptist, and the next dispensation consummated with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, So to will the church age end before the final week, and be consummated 3.5 years later with the resurrection of the reward given to the Saints and the prophets and the resurrection of the dead (Rev. 11:18) Then and only then will Israel declare "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD"

If you are not a dispensationalist you will not understand this. The first 3.5 years of the final week will be the time of transition between the dispensation of the church age, and the consummation of the church age, just like the ministry of Jesus was a time of transition between the Law and the Prophets and the consummation of the New Covenant in Christ, Only the ones ministering then will be the saints, those who have the fulness of Christ within them (Emmanuel, God with us), as Christ Jesus is the head and we are united as one by the Spirit. Then the dead in Christ will be raised, and the Saints which are alive and remain will be transformed as we receive our reward. 

God Bless.

 

 

 

[Gentle-Warrior]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

If you are not a dispensationalist you will not understand this. The first 3.5 years of the final week will be the time of transition between the dispensation of the church age, and the consummation of the church age, just like the ministry of Jesus was a time of transition between the Law and the Prophets and the consummation of the New Covenant in Christ, Only the ones ministering then will be the saints, those who have the fulness of Christ within them (Emmanuel, God with us), as Christ Jesus is the head and we are united as one by the Spirit. Then the dead in Christ will be raised, and the Saints which are alive and remain will be transformed as we receive our reward. 

God Bless.

 

 

 

Dispensations is not a Bible doctrine, but a man made doctrine that was popularized about 200 years ago. Nowhere in the scriptures do I find the "doctrine of dispensations" because the Bible is about covenants. Moreover, there is no such thing as a dispensation of the church. Where is that in the bible?

We live in the new covenant (Lk 22:10, 1Cor. 11:25, 2Cor. 3:6, Heb. 8:13, 9:15, 12:24) which was inaugurated with the blood of Jesus 

Matthew 26:28 (NASB95)

28 "For this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

Can you provide scripture passages that proves what you believe? 

Thanks, 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Gentle-Warrior

[dhchristian]

Just now, Gentle-Warrior said:

Dispensations is not a Bible doctrine, but a man made doctrine that was popularized about 200 years ago. Nowhere in the scriptures do I find the "doctrine of dispensations" because the Bible is about covenants. Moreover, there is no such thing as a dispensation of the church? Where is that in the bible?

You should have read my post completely.

See Luke 16:16 above this marked the end of the dispensation of the Law and the prophets. Read Eph 1:10, as the Word dispensation is used there.

Other verses with the word dispensation in them.

For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. (1 Cor 9:17)

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:10

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph 3:2

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (Col 1:25)

 Luke 16:16 states: The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

So here we see one dispensation ending, and the next beginning, which is the Gospel of the Kingdom. Since the new testament to take effect required the death of the testator....

 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (heb. 9:16-17)

So we have this transition period during the ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus. This is why those people who only received the baptism of John had to be Baptized in the Holy Ghost in Acts 19. Israel' unbelief led to the dispensation of the Gentiles...For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25) 

During this dispensation the Gospel of Grace is preached as opposed to the Gospel of the Kingdom.But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. (Acts 20:24) 

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Romans 11:28)

The Gospel of The Kingdom will be preached once more before the second coming of Jesus, as Per Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. As the Dispensation of the gentiles reaches its fulness (See Eph.  1:10)  And Israel will be restored and enter the kingdom heaven, The Millennial reign of Christ, the Messiah (matt. 23:39, Act 1;6-7)

Most Pre-tribbers say the fulness of the gentiles comes in before the final week, But many of them Overlook the time of transition between the time of the gentiles and the Return of Christ, when the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached once again. The fulness of the gentiles does come before the final week, but the transition time carries this to the Mid week point of this final week.

[Gentle-Warrior]

18 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

You should have read my post completely.

See Luke 16:16 above this marked the end of the dispensation of the Law and the prophets. Read Eph 1:10, as the Word dispensation is used there.

Other verses with the word dispensation in them.

For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. (1 Cor 9:17)

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:10

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph 3:2

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (Col 1:25)

 Luke 16:16 states: The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

So here we see one dispensation ending, and the next beginning, which is the Gospel of the Kingdom. Since the new testament to take effect required the death of the testator....

 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (heb. 9:16-17)

So we have this transition period during the ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus. This is why those people who only received the baptism of John had to be Baptized in the Holy Ghost in Acts 19. Israel' unbelief led to the dispensation of the Gentiles...For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25) 

During this dispensation the Gospel of Grace is preached as opposed to the Gospel of the Kingdom.But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. (Acts 20:24) 

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Romans 11:28)

The Gospel of The Kingdom will be preached once more before the second coming of Jesus, as Per Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. As the Dispensation of the gentiles reaches its fulness (See Eph.  1:10)  And Israel will be restored and enter the kingdom heaven, The Millennial reign of Christ, the Messiah (matt. 23:39, Act 1;6-7)

Most Pre-tribbers say the fulness of the gentiles comes in before the final week, But many of them Overlook the time of transition between the time of the gentiles and the Return of Christ, when the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached once again. The fulness of the gentiles does come before the final week, but the transition time carries this to the Mid week point of this final week.

I read your whole post, but I quoted only part of it because your write way too much, making it impossible for me to cover all points. 

Point 1, you can't rely on a NOUN to establish a doctrine. 99% of modern scholarly translations use the noun ADMINISTRATION or STEWARDSHIP.

Ephesians 1:10 (NASB95) 

"With a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

Point 2, Luke 16:16 is not the mark of the "dispensation of law". That's entirely your personal opinion that is based on an assumption from your part. 

Point 3, Ephesians 3:2 (NASB95)

^2"if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you."

Stewardship simply means —Human responsibility to manage resources that God has placed in one’s care. 

Greek:

30.68 οἰκονομίαb, ας f: a plan which involves a set of arrangements (referring in the NT to God’s plan for bringing salvation to mankind within the course of history)—‘purpose, scheme, plan, arrangement.’ αἵτινες ἐκζητήσεις παρέχουσιν μᾶλλον ἢ οἰκονομίαν θεοῦ τὴν ἐν πίστει ‘these promote controversies rather than God’s plan, which is by faith’ 1 Tm 1:4; φωτίσαι πάντας τίς ἡ οἰκονομία τοῦ μυστηρίου ‘to make all people see what his secret plan is’ Eph 3:9.

Louw, J.P. & Nida, E.A., 1996. Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains, 1, pp.357–358.

I don't use the KJV therefore you cannot use a particular translation to make a valid point. You should rely on the meaning of the word instead of creating an entire doctrine based on one noun!  

NASB95 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;

NKJV if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

AMP Assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace (His unmerited favor) that was entrusted to me [to dispense to you] for your benefit,

ESV assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you,

CJB I assume that you have heard of the work God in his grace has given me to do for your benefit,

GW Certainly, you have heard how God gave me the responsibility of bringing his kindness to you.

HCSB you have heard, haven’t you, about the administration of God’s grace that He gave to me for you?

ISV Surely you have heard about the responsibility of administering God’s grace that was given to me on your behalf,

KJV 1900 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

LEB —if indeed you have heard about the stewardship of God’s grace given to me for you.

NET if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you,

NCV Surely you have heard that God gave me this work to tell you about his grace.

NIV Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you,

NRSV for surely you have already heard of the commission of God’s grace that was given me for you,

 

Lastly, the gospel of grace is not the "dispensation" of grace, it is the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24) NKJV, NASB, ISV, etc. 

 

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Will go over this when I have time, But I do disagree with this. I believe the end time church will unify all seven churches, including Laodicea, and Laodicea will be at the heart of it, despite their resistance and denial now. All of the best parts of the seven churches will be unified as a whole. If you look at the Intro's to each of the churches letters, Each has a different aspect of the Description of Christ applied to them from Revelation chapter 1. All of them Joined together form the Body of Christ. 

Hi dhchristian,

Yes the truths of the Lord revealed to each of the church groups over the centuries have come to us today, however the believers of those times are in the General assembly waiting to come with the Lord to be united with us, -  the whole Body of Christ. (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

Perhaps we are thinking the same thing but saying it in a different way.  

regards Marilyn.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Point 1, you can't rely on a NOUN to establish a doctrine. 99% of modern scholarly translations use the noun ADMINISTRATION or STEWARDSHIP.

Perhaps, those "modern scholarly translations" should not have based their translations off of heretical Alexandrian texts in the first place. For 300 Years the English Language had the KJV and the church did just fine, Since 1904 the modern translations have been using the corruptions of Hort and Wescott, and the results show in the churches of today. Just Sayin'. 

 

1 hour ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Point 2, Luke 16:16 is not the mark of the "dispensation of law". That's entirely your personal opinion that is based on an assumption from your part. 

Just going by what Jesus said here, His words are not open to interpretation and my view is strictly literal. Here I will requote it for you just so that it will sink in. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16:16

Matthew 11:13 confirms this, and adds even more to this... 13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

1 hour ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

I don't use the KJV therefore you cannot use a particular translation to make a valid point.

That is mighty Arrogant of a thing to say... Even the Jehovah's witnesses that come to my door, (And usually never return) allow me to use my KJV, and you exclude me from Using it? I wonder why? Are You scared of the Holy Bible? 

No, Sorry your appeal to intellectual superiority will not work with me, as I am not taught in some seminary (Or cemetary as some have called it), But I have been taught by the Holy Ghost without the teachings and interpretation of men, scholarly or otherwise. Jesus Taught about dispensations, as did Paul the Apostle, and that makes me inclined to say they were right.

God Bless.