JAG** Posted September 4, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2019 . . . for the Christian in light of Eternity. Let us assume a worst case scenario. John Christian lived 100 years suffering severely every year he lived. He even hurt as a new born, and was still hurting when he entered Kindergarten. He hurt all the way through High School and never stopped hurting until the day he died. John Christian spent his entire life in severe pain and all his money on doctors trying to get rid of the pain. He never succeeded. When he turned 75 he quit trying and decided to "just live with the pain" on out to the end and he did exactly that and died at age 100, in severe pain, but trusting the Lord Jesus as his Savior. [Note: I don't think the Lord has ever allowed such as this to occur for one of His children, but remember I need a "worst case scenario" here in order to make my point.] So John Christian, after living 100 years in severe pain dies and goes to Heaven to be with his Lord Jesus for all Eternity. Lets see what the percent ratio of 100 years is to Eternity: After John Christian had been in Heaven for 200 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 200 = 0.5 After John Christian had been in Heaven for 500 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 500 = 0.2 After 10,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 10,000 = 0.01 After John Christian had been in Heaven for 100,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 100,000 = 0.001 After 1,000,000 years in Heaven you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 1,000,000 = 0.0001 After 10,000,000 years in Heaven, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 10,000,000 = 0.00001 After 50,000,000 years in Heaven, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 50,000,000 = 0.000002 After John Christian had been in Heaven for 100,000,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 100,000,000 = 0.00000.1 After 500,000,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 500,000,000 = 0.0000002 Question: How many zeros would you have after John Christian had been in Heaven for 999 trillion years? Moreover, isn't it true, that as Eternity rolled on, there would never come a time when you would not be adding more zeros? What the point? This: At some point the 100 years of severe suffering experience by John Christian in this life would become, in his mind and in his total experience, a fraction so small as to be, for all practical purposes, totally and absolutely non-existent. And again, remember that as Eternity rolls on, the zeros would never cease to be added to the 0. At some point in Eternity, you'd have 999 trillion to the power of 999 trillion . . zeros. And once you reached this point, you would not even have "got started good" in adding zeros to the 0.0 We have a name for all this. We call it God's Mercy and Grace. The Sovereign God will one day, for all practical purposes, reduce out earthly suffering, with regard to our total experience, in percent ratio, to a fraction so small that it will be, de facto, non-existent. (Of course, all this is assuming that we have the "passing of years", in Eternity. Eternity may have a totally different concept of Time than we now experience. But either way, it will all be good for we the people of God.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QParadox Posted September 5, 2019 Group: Seeker * Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 31 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/04/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2019 6 hours ago, JAG** said: . . . for the Christian in light of Eternity. Let us assume a worst case scenario. John Christian lived 100 years suffering severely every year he lived. He even hurt as a new born, and was still hurting when he entered Kindergarten. He hurt all the way through High School and never stopped hurting until the day he died. John Christian spent his entire life in severe pain and all his money on doctors trying to get rid of the pain. He never succeeded. When he turned 75 he quit trying and decided to "just live with the pain" on out to the end and he did exactly that and died at age 100, in severe pain, but trusting the Lord Jesus as his Savior. [Note: I don't think the Lord has ever allowed such as this to occur for one of His children, but remember I need a "worst case scenario" here in order to make my point.] So John Christian, after living 100 years in severe pain dies and goes to Heaven to be with his Lord Jesus for all Eternity. Lets see what the percent ratio of 100 years is to Eternity: After John Christian had been in Heaven for 200 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 200 = 0.5 After John Christian had been in Heaven for 500 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 500 = 0.2 After 10,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 10,000 = 0.01 After John Christian had been in Heaven for 100,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 100,000 = 0.001 After 1,000,000 years in Heaven you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 1,000,000 = 0.0001 After 10,000,000 years in Heaven, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 10,000,000 = 0.00001 After 50,000,000 years in Heaven, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 50,000,000 = 0.000002 After John Christian had been in Heaven for 100,000,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 100,000,000 = 0.00000.1 After 500,000,000 years, you'd have this fraction: 100 divided by 500,000,000 = 0.0000002 Question: How many zeros would you have after John Christian had been in Heaven for 999 trillion years? Moreover, isn't it true, that as Eternity rolled on, there would never come a time when you would not be adding more zeros? What the point? This: At some point the 100 years of severe suffering experience by John Christian in this life would become, in his mind and in his total experience, a fraction so small as to be, for all practical purposes, totally and absolutely non-existent. And again, remember that as Eternity rolls on, the zeros would never cease to be added to the 0. At some point in Eternity, you'd have 999 trillion to the power of 999 trillion . . zeros. And once you reached this point, you would not even have "got started good" in adding zeros to the 0.0 We have a name for all this. We call it God's Mercy and Grace. The Sovereign God will one day, for all practical purposes, reduce out earthly suffering, with regard to our total experience, in percent ratio, to a fraction so small that it will be, de facto, non-existent. (Of course, all this is assuming that we have the "passing of years", in Eternity. Eternity may have a totally different concept of Time than we now experience. But either way, it will all be good for we the people of God.) Does time actually exist? In this universe or the next. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa7 Posted September 5, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 186 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 268 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/24/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2019 The OP certainly puts things into perspective, doesn't it? Our time here on earth is nothing compared to eternity. What a relief Heaven will be! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovethelord Posted September 5, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 667 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 1,540 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2019 Thanks Jag for posting. I'm glad I continued reading your post, I think this can be helpful for anyone presently going through pain, suffering or trials in their life. It reminds us how short our time is here in the world. 2 Corinthians 4:17, "For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted September 5, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2019 I see your point and the perspective of those posting to this topic. And it is true. WHEN we finally get past death's door we Hope for what is to come (as Paul addresses in 2 COr 3 and 4). And Paul certainly understands those in severe suffering, which, Thank God, most have not the least idea what it is like. Paul says that he was pressed far beyond his ability to endure so that he despaired of life itself. Because eternity awaits, the suffering soul may have strength to face the next minute, but how incredibly difficult each minute can be. Be very cautious with quick advice to one in suffering. We have brothers and sisters around the world for whom each minute is beyond what they can endure. They wonder how they can have so much pain, be it physical, emotional or spiritual, and still be alive. Like Paul, they despair of life itself. Remember them, in the prisons of every country, in the hospitals, living in the slums with no hope, living in the mansions with no hope, sitting in the pews, or on the dirt floors. In prisons of the mind because of the things others have done to them. In prisons of the mind because of the things they have done to others. Aware that most of the people around them would not do a thing to help them, in other words despised and ignored, which is the opposite of love. Just yesterday I was walking through an area, and a elderly man was standing in the door of his house. We spoke in his language (as best I could), he mentioned something about his father, then burst out sobbing. The best I could determine, his father had died some years ago, and the man was filled with grief that he had not been a good son. And now it was too late. Years of pain, no reconciliation ever possible on this earth. I put my hand on his arm, and waited with him while the waves of pain passed. I said a few things, but I know what helped for that brief moment was someone caring, touching him. Is the pain gone? No. It will never go. But Hope can grow anyway. The two do not exclude each other. Do I want him to suffer because he was a bad son? Not in the least, and neither does God. Real Love makes him know that. So yes, eternity is our only hope. And sharing in other's suffering is not entertaining, it is real. Sorry if I took this off topic a little. I think the OP was trying to deal with the apologetic issue of the Problem of Pain as CS Lewis titled his book on the subject. If you read that book, be sure to read what I consider to be its sequel A Grief Observed which he wrote after his wife died. Not a fun read, but he gets to a better place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted September 7, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Picky Pilot said: I also find it interesting that many of those people who laid hands on and prayed over her, have given up and, when confronted with the knowledge of us having a significant other point and say "You can't do that!" "What about your marriage vows?" Yeah, right. I don't really understand these last lines? "'significant other point"" : What point? "'you can't do that": Do what? ""what about your marriage vows": What has this to do with your wife and Alzheimer's? ""Yeah right"" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted September 7, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Picky Pilot said: Okay, lets look at another worst case scenario. Let's say your beautiful wife of 21 years starts to forget things. It gets worse. She misses appointments, forgets to pay bills. She pays some bills twice. She's diagnosed with Mild Cognitive Impairment. As time goes on, she steadily declines. Two years later, she's diagnosed with Early Onset Alzheimer's Disease. She eventually loses her ability to speak. A year later, she loses her ability to understand language. She's forgotten who her children are, her best friends, her neighbors. She forgets your name and who you are to her. She loses control of her body functions. It's been TEN YEARS now. Your wife had a masters in Speech Pathology. She was a pilot who placed second in the national Women's Air Race. She was the COO of your company. She is slowly dying one brain cell at a time and there are no cures, no medicines and no hope to make her better. She's brought to the front of the church where people lay hands on her and pray. Some jack leg preacher tells you that she's demon possessed and that if HER faith was strong enough, she'll be healed. So... What about this "worst case scenario"? This is real and not some cute little story about 100 year pain. She's MY WIFE. I've come close to losing my mind trying to care for her. Her children are brokenhearted. Her friends have all but disappeared. More idiots say: "God never gives you more than you can handle" Got news for you. Cemeteries are filled with people who got more than they could handle from God. Not really interested in numbers out the ying yang at this point. I just want my sweet wife to be as happy as she can be in the time she has left. And, please don't bother throwing verses at me. After years of bible college and being a counselor at a mega church, I've read, heard and said it all. I also find it interesting that many of those people who laid hands on and prayed over her, have given up and, when confronted with the knowledge of us having a significant other point and say "You can't do that!" "What about your marriage vows?" Yeah, right. My Brother in Suffering, I hesitate to call you that as it is such a difficult place to be and each person's suffering is searingly unique to them. While I have not had a spouse with Alzheimers, I have had 2 close family members die of it. It was easy to see that it is hardest on the spouse. The person that you love intensely, slowly becoming someone completely different. As with all suffering there are no words that even come close to conveying the agony of each passing minute. I know all too well and wish I did not. I think Jesus knows the pain. He quoted Psalm 22 when hanging on the cross. Which as I write this I went to read, and reading it thinking of your pain made me unable to see the screen as the tears flood my eyes. My head now hurts and the tears are salty in my mouth. I don't know you, but I know pain. Jesus knows pain. David knows pain. Paul knew pain and wrote in 2 Cor 1 that he was pressed far beyond his ability to endure, so that he despaired of life itself. A good verse to remind the insensitive of when they say that crap about God won't give you more than you can handle. I guess if "handle" means get through without turning to Satan, then it is true. But it is way beyond the ability to endure. I can't give you advice you don't already know. I went through an earlier "pressing" similar to yours many years ago. People do not realize that their inept theology has horrible consequences in the real world, resulting in situations like the false prophet saying your wife has a demon. If it was true, just kick it out. But it is not and the person was not speaking for God. If they were speaking for God, I believe they would sit next to you and sob over the massive pain. Jesus Wept. Shortest verse in the Bible, but tremendous depth. I wish I was close enough to just come over and sit with you as there is nothing else I could do. I have been "pressed beyond" for a few years now (again), not as long as you, but I wish it was over with every fiber of my being. This one won't be over until the end . I have come to sense a bit of accomplishment at the end of most days - one day closer to the end. I hope you feel that too. I have probably said too much and now I really can't see the screen. God have mercy, please have mercy on us. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted September 7, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 7, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Picky Pilot said: I really appreciate your kind words. It wasn't until last year that I really felt that I would make it. Ann suggested five years ago that I find someone to talk to, do fun things with and be a friend for her. I resisted until last year when we, together, reached out on social media and met the lovely, sweet lady who appears on my left. Ann now has the sister she never had and I have someone to hold my arms up while I battle this horrible disease. I suspect that your situation has caused a lot of accusations of moral failure. There are many who are full of condemnation for what they consider to be sins, while the things they do that clearly are listed as sins are never even considered. Since the New Covenent is grace, most ignore the Law of Moses, even though Jesus said that whoever teaches against that Law is the least in the kingdom of heaven. And he said to not try to help others get the specks out of their eyes while the log remains in yours. Most blindly believe that their respective country's laws reflect the laws of God - while most systems of Law are directly called evil by the law of God. (obey God rather than man anyone?). The church in most of the world handed the control of marriage over to the civil government, walking right into the trap the Satan set, which has now tripped with dire consequences in the belief systems of most christians. So people attack you in your situation, doubting your standing with God based on what they infer about your situation and adjudicating you guilty based on a system of law they invented. They say they are all about Grace, but their prisons are filled to overflowing with people that would not be guilty under the Law of Moses. How nice to be happy about Grace and join the throng demanding justice for others. Compartmentalization is a very helpful narcotic. I suspect that already many of the people on this forum have selected the option to have the system filter out my posts. Fine. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. I hope God's Mercy will make so I don't post here for too long. Besides, I fully know that I am nothing. Quite lierally just one among the many billions that have lived or are living now. My thoughts are not original, many think this way but are quite effectively systematically silenced. I only post as I feel led by the Spirit. I would prefer to slip from this realm without facing the hordes of hate. But not a choice I get to make. All that to explain why I posted here after quoting your post, which will immediately make more ignore me as they have found what they were looking for: a reason to disregard. But after thinking it through, I decided that I, for one, will not condemn you, not even by withholding the beloved "Like" reaction (excuse the sarcasm). Edited September 7, 2019 by lftc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picky Pilot Posted September 8, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 50 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 22 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/15/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1948 Share Posted September 8, 2019 8 hours ago, lftc said: Most blindly believe that their respective country's laws reflect the laws of God - while most systems of Law are directly called evil by the law of God. (obey God rather than man anyone?). The church in most of the world handed the control of marriage over to the civil government, walking right into the trap the Satan set, which has now tripped with dire consequences in the belief systems of most Christians. So people attack you in your situation, doubting your standing with God based on what they infer about your situation and adjudicating you guilty based on a system of law they invented. They say they are all about Grace, but their prisons are filled to overflowing with people that would not be guilty under the Law of Moses. How nice to be happy about Grace and join the throng demanding justice for others. Compartmentalization is a very helpful narcotic. For someone categorized as a "Junior Member", you speak with the wisdom and authority of a seasoned saint. Thank you for your insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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