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Justin Adams

Two separate wars?? Your thoughts please.

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Seems like there are two separate wars.

Ezekiel 38:8, 11-12 (HCSB) — 8 After a long time you will be summoned. In the last years you will enter a land that has been restored from war and [1] regathered from many peoples to the mountains of Israel, which had long been a ruin. They were brought out from the peoples, and all of them now [2] live securely. 11 You will say, ‘I will go up against [2] a land of open villages; I will come against a tranquil people who are [2] living securely, all of them living [2] without walls and without bars or gates— 12 in order to seize spoil and carry off plunder, to turn your hand against ruins now inhabited and against a [1] people gathered from the nations, who have been acquiring cattle and possessions and who live at the center of the world.’

Ezekiel 38:22 (HCSB) — I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed. I will pour out torrential rain, hailstones, fire, and brimstone on him, as well as his troops and the many peoples who are with him.

AND

Ezekiel 39:20-26 (HCSB) — 20 At My table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, of mighty men and all the warriors.” 21 “I will display My glory among the nations, and all [1] the nations will see the judgment I have executed and the hand I have laid on them. 23 And [2] the nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile on account of their iniquity...25 “So this is what the Lord GOD says: Now [3] I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have compassion on the whole house of Israel... 26 They will feel remorse for, their disgrace... when they [3] live securely in their land with no one to frighten them. 22 [4] From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God.

Ezekiel 39:7, 22, 28-29 (HCSB) — 7 So I will make My holy name known among My people Israel and will no longer allow it to be profaned. Then the nations will know that I am Yahweh, the Holy One in Israel. ... 22 From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God. ... 28 They will know that I am the LORD their God when I regather them to their own land after having exiled them among the nations. I will leave none of them behind. 29 I will no longer hide My face from them, for I will pour out My Spirit on the house of Israel.

Revelation 20:7-9 (HCSB) — 7 When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city[Jerusalem, Israel]. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

Revelation 19:17-21 (HCSB) — 17 ...an angel ... cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.” 19 Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army. 20 But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

So the question is, if there are two wars, where and when do they occur?

(har megiddo) and other translational renditions, might be John's clever word-smithing that can also mean Moutain(s) of The Lord. Jerusalem, the Holy City of God. It seems it has nothing to do with Megiddo which is a plain and not mountainous. The Holy Mountain or Mountain of our God is called Mt Zion.

Furthermore, it is in my mind that the City of our God, the very Throne of the Divine presence, both here on earth AND in Heaven is the CENTER-STAGE of the final battle for supremacy.  The absolute FINAL End-game conflict involving humans and divine beings against the Unholy Hoards of evil.

Edited by Justin Adams
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Amazing, I never expected a discussion along these lines to pop up on this forum :)   Part of my  trek through the Word involved Him pointing out that modern interpretations of eschatology have almost all failed to incorporate the millennium, and the realization that more than one prophecy has been compressed (force fit) into the  end of this age, that doesn't apply to this age at all.  And it's generated a lot of confusion.  This 7000 year dealing with sin isn't over until the  END of the next age....and there's a prophetic witness to those events before they happen too.

The Jews of Jesus' day made the exact same mistake.  They saw prophecies of a triumphant King sent to restore Israel, and that so appealed to their desire they overlooked all the prophecies of the  suffering servant, and could not see how  God was moving among them in their day, right before their eyes.  It's not a lot different  today....

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So, relating to this I have two more questions. Why do we need the 1k years? Why do we need a 'temple' and sacrifices and how do we equate this with the 'Kingdom has come nigh unto you' and one is 'placed in the Kingdom' when one believes on Yeshua and is 'translated' into this Kingdom. How does this fit with Daniel and Revelations?

It all is probably deliberately obscure since God did not telegraph succinctly the first Advent, and does not seem to want to telegraph the Second Advent very clearly. Could the millennium be a red herring? Perhaps designed to give the principalities time they will never get to enjoy? Yahweh is not above a bit of 'creative licence'.

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6 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

So, relating to this I have two more questions. Why do we need the 1k years?

If the Bible explicitly states the reason for putting off Father's return for a thousand years, I haven't had eyes to see it yet.  But, I  think I've thought about it enough  to come up with a respectable guess.  It'll be interesting to see if anyone else can see anywhere the Word  either confirms or denies  the  guess.

 

Few I've spoken to seem to have noticed there will be two classes of human beings on earth  simultaneously during the Millennial Reign.  The first "class" will be those who are as we are now.  "Sons of Adam" for lack of a better term, simply referring to the fact they will live in fallen flesh, having survived the final years of satan's attempt to establish his  kingdom by force through the beast.  I think we can safely discern that much from Matthew 24 where Jesus is speaking of the time shortly before His return:

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“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.  Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.....
“For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be."

I think that pretty clearly tells that however small that number my prove to be, some men and women will enter the Millennial Reign without passing through death and receiving a new spiritual, resurrection body.  Still capable of sinning, still in need of the blood and acceptance of the redemptive work of Jesus.  I assume these are the men and women who will repopulate the 1000 year  reign. 

I've had some fun just playing with numbers and various population growth rates starting with various starting numbers, but it seems the  global population at the end of the Millennium is likely to be huge indeed.

 

 

But there  is a second "class" of human being we're told of in Revelation 20:4-6.   And these seem to be martyrs who are resurrected, have received perfected spiritual bodies and are raise from the dead to rule and reign with Him.

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Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

This opens up the suggestion  there will be something unique in human history during present during the Millennium, and that is a perfect government.  From the  King of Kings on down through however He ends up organizing it, regional kings, provincial  governors, mayors of cities, judges, whatever law  enforcement  arm exists, right on down to the  dog  catcher, will be incorruptible.  There will be no potential to pervert justice by bribing a judge or blackmailing a police officer or any official. 

There  will be no kickback schemes siphoning wealth out of society for personal gain by corrupt politicians, no sweetheart deals with contract bidding....NONE of the  corruption we see in human governments down through  history  will be possible.  Offenses will be addressed with justice, restitution and punishment under the law will be equitable and commensurate with  the  crime.  No "person" will be respected above another at law regardless of wealth, influence or status.

For the very first time in human history, no man will be oppressed by the  government and no man will be able to blame governmental oppression for his own choice to do violence, steal or any  other crime.  His government will be PERFECT....top to bottom.

 

But there is a second factor that is also unique in human history and that is the complete absence of the  presence and influence of satan or his minions.  Whatever sins men may commit, not ONE will be  able to say "..the devil made me do it." 

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Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.  And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;  and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

If we read Revelation 19 we'll find just before this, Jesus comes riding down the sky with the  armies of heaven at His heels, the beast's armies are utterly  destroyed and the beast and false prophet captured and cast alive into the Lake of Fire.  Satan and his angels are evidently sent to Tartarus to join his Gen 6 rebels for a thousand years, until the  final Judgement and renewal of all things at the  end of the thousand years.

 

I think this may  point to the answer to the question "Why do we need the  1k years?"   It seems to me this will be the  final proof of the wickedness that resides in the heart of unregenerate man. 

 

The Bible tells us all this down here has in some way been a revelation of His wisdom, to the  heavenly host, and the heavenly host are eagerly watching, desiring to "look into these things".

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and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;  so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

 

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It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaventhings into which angels long to look.

 

 

Just an aside, but it seems ironic to discover He's chosen to reveal things angels don't know through MEN, speaking by  the anointing of  the Spirit.  I sometimes wonder just how many angels are listening in when a true man of God teaches or preaches.  That audience might be greater than the numbers of people listening, by far :).  That little Bible study it's on someone's heart to found might have much more eternal potential for good than we can even imagine.  Even if the people had a rough week and snore through your anointed sermon :).  

 

Back on track :)  I think the fact satan is released one last time for a short season might be seen as circumstantial support for the ideas presented above.  Though it strains my  imagination, even after 1000 years of perfect government, perfect justice and lifespans returned to pre-flood lengths, there will still be one last rebellion against the rule of the King, and one final effort to  unseat Him and take His crown.

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When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.  And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Doesn't look like this one is much of a fight, and it challenges me to imagine how so many  will be willing  to reject Him after living in His  sight  all their  lives.  Yet they will.  I think it likely His plan to let satan have one more go, is simply to use him to reveal what He already knows is in the hearts  of men, and let them show their true colors when satan shows up to give  their rebellion focus and intent.

To summarize  all that I think it's worth  considering the  thousand years is the final "test" that  proves forever the  folly of trying to  live apart from Him.  Every one of these years of human misery and suffering  will be recorded, and likely  in full sensory VR format and will stand as an eternal record of the folly  of sin, under ANY conditions, so  that none need be tempted to choose it  again, forever.

 

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Why do we need a 'temple' and sacrifices ...

I don't know the  answer, but the  only way I've been able to resolve this so far is to speculate these continuing sacrifices, take on a "memorial" aspect, a reminder and visual allegory of what Jesus did for us. 

We know there is no more sacrifice for sin, so there can't be a relationship between temple bloodletting  and forgiveness....He finished that.  But I can imagine the annual feasts will be a time of amazing rejoicing, good food and remembrance of what He gave  for us.  

And given the fact that even with  that  'in your face' reminder, with  attendance required, even that won't be sufficient to convince everyone of their need of His salvation.

 

I'll stop here :)  Got some ideas about  the rest of your post too but this is long enough for one post.  I  guess we'll see where this  goes :)

Edited by Jostler
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Thanks for the input. I would not ask if I was sure of any answer. Sometimes the answers pose more questions.

Specifically, if I may quote something said. 'so  that none need be tempted to choose it again, forever.' That kind of thing has always bothered me. We are supposed to kinda perfect, yet still there is this underlying sense of chaos and the possibilities of making the wrong choices. I know that to be in God's Image we have to be 'unconstrained' in our thoughts and actions, like He is.

Even some of His heavenly host sinned and will pay the price 'die like men' (ps. 82). I.e. loose their immortality much as Adam did once.

So my further question, if we are 'changed' and 'transformed' to  be like Yeshua, why would sin still be a possible issue?

Before Adam fell, one gets the sense he was innocent and did not know what sin was - until he disobeyed. The heavenly host knew all about it though, and so did God. So if we are to be trusted Council Members and serve Yahweh, is this really going to be a second 'test'? Ideas?

 

Edited by Justin Adams

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1 minute ago, Justin Adams said:

Thanks for the input. I would not ask if I was sure of any answer. Sometimes the answers pose more questions.

Specifically, if I may quote something said. 'so  that none need be tempted to choose it again, forever.' That kind of thing has always bothered me. We are supposed to kinda perfect, yet still there is this underlying sense of chaos and the possibilities of making the wrong choices. I know that to be in God's Image we have to be 'unconstrained' in our thoughts and actions, like He is.

Even some of His heavenly host sinned and will pay the price 'die like men' (ps. 82). I.e. loose their immortality much as Adam did once.

So my further question, if we are 'changed' and 'transformed' to  be like Yeshua, why would sin still be a possible issue?

Before Adam fell, one gets the sense he was innocent and did not know what sin was - until he disobeyed. The heavenly host knew all about it though, and so did God. So if we are to be trusted Council Members and serve Yahweh, is this really going to be a second 'test'? Ideas?

 

Well, before Adam fell he was so pure and innocent God  could come presence Himself with him ...no problems.   But he had the potential  to fall, and eventually did.  He fell because he had a free will to choose with, and if you think about it, possessing a free will will ALWAYS mean there is a potential to use it to sin.  Adam fell and his fellowship  with God was cut off....his spirit died and  God cannot be in the presence of sin could no longer join him in the  Garden and fellowship with him. 

God's very nature demands that He grant free will because He is love.  He desires to be "chosen" by us, because we recognize Him for who He is and His love for us, and CHOOSE to  love Him back.  Love that is  not a free-will offering has no value to  God who  is love.

I honestly believe this will be the wisdom revealed for all the ages, how He  could come up with a way to fully honor and preserve free will for  all eternity, in an environment where  sin and all it's horrors has been so thoroughly demonstrated (and recorded in His "books") that none will ever  WANT to leave Him again and choose the lordship of another...or self.

I believe free will demands by it's very nature the potential to sin, i just don't think we'll ever want to again.

If there is only  one choice, free will is not relevant at all.  It has no valid context to  give it meaning.  But by the  time we get through  this test I think we'll love Him so much, and see Him (Father) for exactly Who He is, the idea of "leaving" Him by sinning will just be laughable  :)

Fact is Jesus could have sinned if He'd chosen to.  He took a horrific "test" and was tempted many times, in all the ways we  are.  I am quite sure Father's foreknowledge knew  He would pass the test, but nevertheless it was a real test....and praise  Him for passing it.

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Yes, they are two separate wars. 

It is important to recognize that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 is quite different from the one in Revelation 20:7-8. Below are some of the more obvious reasons why these refer to different people and battles.

1. In the battle of Ezekiel 38-39, the armies come primarily from the north and involve only a few nations of the earth (Ezekiel 38:6, 15; 39:2). The battle in Revelation 20:7-9 will involve all nations, so armies will come from all directions, not just from the north.

2. There is no mention of Satan in the context of Ezekiel 38-39. In Revelation 20:7 the context clearly places the battle at the end of the millennium with Satan as the primary character.

3. Ezekiel 39:11-12 states that the dead will be buried for seven months. There would be no need to bury the dead if the battle in Ezekiel 38-39 is the one described in Revelation 20:8-9, for immediately following Revelation 20:8-9 is the Great White Throne judgment (20:11-15) and then the current or present heaven and earth are destroyed, replaced by a new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1). There obviously will be a need to bury the dead if the battle takes place in the early part of the tribulation, for the land of Israel will be occupied for another 1,000 years, the length of the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

4. The battle in Ezekiel 38-39 is used by God to bring Israel back to Him (Ezekiel 39:21-29). In Revelation 20, Israel has been faithful to God for 1,000 years (the millennial kingdom). Those in Revelation 20:7-10 who are rebellious are destroyed without any more opportunity for repentance.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Gog-Magog.html

Edited by missmuffet
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29 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

...So if we are to be trusted Council Members and serve Yahweh, is this really going to be a second 'test'? Ideas?

 

 

Can you clarify that question for me?  I'm not certain I understand what you're referring to as a possible "second test"...or for whom.

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15 minutes ago, Jostler said:

Can you clarify that question for me?  I'm not certain I understand what you're referring to as a possible "second test"...or for whom.

It is a really tricky issue. Yeshua is God. The One by Whom Creation was constructed. He 'learned' obedience by suffering. That much I kinda get. Sort-of. The Spirit that was in Christ is really Holy Spirit if we look at the Tanach and the apostles writings.

He knew who He was and had no identity issues. Not like we do. He knew what was going to happen and that is why He sweat blood in anguish. He must have had some recollection of the Glory He left behind and His frequent prayer times was due to His prior closeness  (One-ness) to the Father in their Heavenly Godhead. That is understood (sort of).

But we are different. All created beings are different. They are autonomous in their own right. So my question is really, does something change us so radically when we have our 'better bodies' (and presumably better minds)? Are we actually changed in the way we see things and relate to things, without as you mention, losing our free will.

Personally, I have faced so much in my life, that if God appeared to me and said 'wanna be MY zombie?' I might jump at the idea. (Probably not, but there is that lingering thought - can I trust myself NOT to screw up again).

So, since you imply that the millenium is a 'second test' I wondered about that question. That is why the 1k years seems odd and the temple and sacrifice. Surely they are not allegories or metaphorical? And why two battles and not just one to finish it all for good? These are my thoughts sometimes.

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