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Doctrine of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit


Deadworm

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1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

I stil want to know why so many Christians these day think that if you dont speak in tongues you are not truly saved.

Hi there. If they tell you that they are wrong. Do not listen to them. Many Christians today know so little it is mind-boggling how little some do know. There is a lot to be learned, but exclusive clubs I would stay far away from.

Edited by Justin Adams
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27 minutes ago, DustyRoad said:

So, the gift of languages --- or tongues if you prefer --- is rather specific, isn't it

Actually, no, the word is actually very non-specific.  The Biblical gift  of "tongues" is a gift that  has several different expressions

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to another performance of miracles, to another prophecy, and to another discernment of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

 

Some are even angelic languages.

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If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

 

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, DustyRoad said:

For this gift to be of any use the language spoken (or written) must be understood by someone other than the speaker/writer.

That sounds logical, but it disagrees with the Bible

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For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, for no one understands; he is speaking mysteries by the Spirit.

I  think speaking to God  has great value, whether  men understand it  or not.  And obviously men don't understand it according to that verse.

 

And even the speaker  doesn't intellectually comprehend/understand it.

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If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive.

 

There are some kinds of tongues appropriate for expression during an assembly, and some that are not.  Those that are not ARE appropriate and useful in the  privacy of the prayer closet.

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If someone speaks in a tongue, it should be two, or at the most three, one after the other, and someone must interpret.  But if there is no interpreter, he should be silent in the church. Let him speak to himself and to God.

 

 

 

Quote

If I possess gifts but they're of no use to others, then what purpose do they serve? Vanity.

God does not give gifts for the purpose of making men vain.  Nor does He give "gifts" of no use.

 

 

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Maryjayne: "I see. Well, I dont speak in tongues, so I am not saved. Never have, not even at the moment I was saved/" 

So are you saying that the Word of God is wrong when Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, "I want you all to speak in tongues" and "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you?" Paul often instructs his reader to imitate him and follow his example.  Ttue, Paul adds that he'd rather we all prophesy, but most Christians neither understand nor exercise that gift either.

btw. the tongues I spoke during my Spirit baptism at age 16 were by far the spiritual, emotional, and most life-changing experience of my life.  I experienced God's love in an indescribably powerful, intimate, and oh so sweet way than I have experienced before or since and now, decades later, I regularly draw nourishment form the sheer memory of that experience in times of doubt and disappointment.  

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Hey all.. new here yeah! Hope its ok to chime in. So we know that everything Christ said was from the Father. And we know Christ can not lie. So who to some think about Mark 16 17 " And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; " I read follow them that believe. Not some here and there.. but follow them that believe. Unless I missed it and I could have but when in the word did they pray for someone to receive the holy Spirit and it never spoke in tongues? In a bible study the would ask if I wanted the holy Spirit. I was already saved. I said yes one night. They read what the word said about the holy Spirit prayed then stopped. Said "you got it" Nothing happened. I got up went to go sit down and BAM! Tongues just came out. Same as it happened in the word. I've never meet one that said they were not saved because they don't speak in tongues. I guess they can be out there :)

What do I personally believe? ME.. every one that asks for the holy Spirit can speak in tongues. When I don't know how to pray.. I pray in tongues. And MAN do you get blessed.

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32 minutes ago, TheBlade said:

Hey all.. new here yeah! Hope its ok to chime in. So we know that everything Christ said was from the Father. And we know Christ can not lie. So who to some think about Mark 16 17 " And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; " I read follow them that believe. Not some here and there.. but follow them that believe. Unless I missed it and I could have but when in the word did they pray for someone to receive the holy Spirit and it never spoke in tongues? In a bible study the would ask if I wanted the holy Spirit. I was already saved. I said yes one night. They read what the word said about the holy Spirit prayed then stopped. Said "you got it" Nothing happened. I got up went to go sit down and BAM! Tongues just came out. Same as it happened in the word. I've never meet one that said they were not saved because they don't speak in tongues. I guess they can be out there :)

What do I personally believe? ME.. every one that asks for the holy Spirit can speak in tongues. When I don't know how to pray.. I pray in tongues. And MAN do you get blessed.

Let's see the verse in Mark 16 in context.

14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Nowhere does it say that everyone who believes will do all the things mentioned in verses 17 & 18.  In fact, since scripture does not contradict scripture, we need to place this passage beside what we read in 1 Corinthians 12:11 after scripture speaks of the different gifts.

11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Let's look at all the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Notice how each gift begins with "to one" or "to another", showing us that He will give the gifts as He will, supported in verse 11.  Not every will be given the gift of tongues no more than everyone getting the gift of miracles and so on.

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On 11/7/2019 at 3:31 PM, OneLight said:

Let's see the verse in Mark 16 in context.

14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Nowhere does it say that everyone who believes will do all the things mentioned in verses 17 & 18.  In fact, since scripture does not contradict scripture, we need to place this passage beside what we read in 1 Corinthians 12:11 after scripture speaks of the different gifts.

11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Let's look at all the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Notice how each gift begins with "to one" or "to another", showing us that He will give the gifts as He will, supported in verse 11.  Not every will be given the gift of tongues no more than everyone getting the gift of miracles and so on.

He OneLight..amen ONE LIGHT! In Mark it does say "these signs will accompany those who believe". You said "no where does it say everyone" yet.. who is " those that believe".?  We keep reading and its "they, them etc". Who is this if not all that believe? And you are right about the gifts of the spirit they are given as He gives. Now I speak in tongues but I don't have the gift of tongues. I as Christ said can lay hands on the sick and they will recover. Same as the man that was driving how demons in His name where Christ said "or whoever is not against us is for us.". Peter and John at the gate. Where they said .. " as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?"   "and his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong". Mark "in my name". So I can lay hands on the sick and they will be healed. This is not the "gift of healing nor the gift of miracles". Now if one sees them as the gifts then I can see how it can look as though its not in context.  :)

 

The 120 where they were waiting as Christ said for the promise. As its written "all  filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues". These "signs" will accompany those who believe. In my name they will cast out demons they will speak in new tongues. All in the word that asked for the Holy Spirit were filled and then spoke in tongues. This is not the gift of tongues as I believe :) Praise God glory to Jesus!

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On 9/14/2019 at 3:46 PM, Deadworm said:

What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?  We must begin by noting what it is not--it is not the reception of the Spirit automatically received upon profession of faith in Christ.  1 Corinthians 12:13 is often misinterpreted to have this meaning: 

"For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...and were made to drink of one Spirit."

As Hans Conzelmann is no charismatic or Pentecostal and is well respected in the academic community of biblical studies.  In his magisterial Commentary on 1 Corinthians, he rightly notes: "The expression ["in the Spirit we were all baptized into one body"] appears to mean that the body [of Christ] is already there when we are taken up into it by [water] baptism (p.212)."  Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting Luke, for whom Spirit baptism is a second work of grace after salvation.  Consider these 5 points:

(1) "John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now(1:4).""But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be witnesses (1:8)..."                                                                                       "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them ability (2:4)."

(2) Luke identifies 2 characteristics of Spirit baptism: an experience of power and speaking in tongues.  Spirit power enables them to witness effectively, aided by their healings through the power of the Spirit. 

(3) In 3 of the 4 cases in Acts when believers are baptized in the Spirit, we are told that they speak in tongues. In the 4th case (in Samaria) an eruption of tongues seems implied by the demonstration of "power" impressive enough to prompt Simon the Magician to offer money for this "power."  The Samaritans believe the Gospel and are baptized in water and are thus saved (8:12).  They presumably received the regenerating Holy Spirit.  It is important to note that Luke nowhere acknowledges the redemptive work of the Spirit upon initial profession of faith in Christ.  So these new Samaritan Christians now need to be baptized with the Holy Spirit as a second work of grace: "The 2 [Peter and John] went down to pray for them; for as yet the Spirit had not come upon any of them.  They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (8:15-16)."

(4) Note the question that Paul asks the Ephesian "disciples:"  "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (19:2)?"  The question assumes that these disciples first became Christians and now need the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  And what is the sign of  that baptism?  An experience of divine power evidenced by speaking on tongues and prophesying (19:6).

(5) Jesus'  disciples receive Spirit baptism as a second work of grace after having already received the Spirit from Jesus (John 20:22-23). Only after receiving the Holy Spirit do the disciples have the power and discernment to "forgive" or "retain" sins.  Of course, by doing so, they are making real the forgiveness offered by God Himself.

Protestant Pentacostals continually subvert Biblical doctrine so as to promote their particular form of religious emotionalism.   

That's all it is, boys and girls - emotionalism.   It's an appeal to spiritism that does nothing except promote self-centered spiritual pride.  (I can speak in tongues more than you all - and interpret anything said in gibberish)

GRACE is not given in stages.   It's not given to promote a religious circus act.   GRACE is given that the LAW may be lived in the life of the believer, thus pleasing God.   None can live such a life except GRACE be granted to them.

Therefore these emotionally driven types will claim they're saved by GRACE not LAW even as they deny the words of HE who came to save them from their sins and stated "I did not come to abolish the LAW, but to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)   These wretched and spiritually poor souls neither know nor understand the LAW.  Neither do they wish to.   They do not know which LAW Jesus came to fulfill nor how He did it despite years of repetition of religious slogans.   To them the buzz words have become mere empty words used to pacify an otherwise lawLESS mob.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is by GRACE so as to enable the believer to live by the LAW and please God.  It isn't given for a cheap prideful utterance during worship services, yet that is exactly how it is interpreted in fact, promoted in public and acted out in services.   The baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't given so that certain individuals can promote their spiritual superiority and lord it over others by pretenses of being a prophet, which is as far from the truth as one can get.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is real and useful and glorifies Christ.  

It NEVER glorifies some snake oil salesman on TV or in the common worship service, yet that is EXACTLY how it is perceived and performed.  

Has anyone ever wondered why the first fake word of tongues in a worship service is always SHUNDA?  

This is about as gross and disgusting as any satanic spiritual expression, yet the fools who rely upon it and worship it refuse to seek or understand the truth.  Hypocrites and lost souls one and all.

SHUNDA indeed.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

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"That's all it is, boys and girls - emotionalism.   It's an appeal to spiritism that does nothing except promote self-centered spiritual pride.  (I can speak in tongues more than you all - and interpret anything said in gibberish)" 

I watched this video not to long ago where this fairly well known preacher talking about what happen in the bible with "speaking in tongues" baptism of the holy spirit does not happen like that any more.  Then what happen to me? When I was young I went to this bible study where they always said "if we say anything that is not written do not believe us". They asked me if I wanted the holy Spirit. One night I said yes. Not really understanding the holy Spirit. But I sat in this chair and he read what the bible said..that was it. Then asked if I wanted the holy spirit again I said yes. He read the verse you know where Christ that only said what GOD said how much more will your heavenly Father give the holy Spirit to them that ask. Then prayed stopped and said "thats it you got it". That was it. Thats all they did. 

See they believed if GOD said it He will do it for HE can not lie. Nothing happened. No one said a word. I got up went to sit down was not thinking anything and BAM! Tongues just came out. Oh and PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS... WOW when Christ said you shall receive power after? What was that PROMISE Christ talked about? Did not JESUS on earth ask the Father for what? My self I listen to man talk about Gods word.. I learn allot. But when all is said and done.. if I believe as Jesus said John 3 16. <---is this real  or not? But Luke .. when again Jesus said to them to ask.. this one doesnt count for some reason? I read in Acts people were asked have you received since you believed. They get prayed for and BAM! They speak in tongues. I didn't see that for SO many years. 

What happen to them was exactly what happen to me. Jesus not man JESUS said ask. Man told me things were dead gone passed away. Yet.. I still see what Christ was doing happening today. There are still those speak in tongues where someone comes up and says "do you know what you were just saying?" " I am from so and so and you were praising GOD in my language." Yet the only language that person knew was English. Still happens today. 

I would only say.. if HE said it.. if its  written He will do it. Not what I say or my experience..its what HE said :) I don't touch the holy Spirit

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On 9/15/2019 at 7:46 AM, Deadworm said:

What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?  We must begin by noting what it is not--it is not the reception of the Spirit automatically received upon profession of faith in Christ.  1 Corinthians 12:13 is often misinterpreted to have this meaning: 

"For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...and were made to drink of one Spirit."

As Hans Conzelmann is no charismatic or Pentecostal and is well respected in the academic community of biblical studies.  In his magisterial Commentary on 1 Corinthians, he rightly notes: "The expression ["in the Spirit we were all baptized into one body"] appears to mean that the body [of Christ] is already there when we are taken up into it by [water] baptism (p.212)."  Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting Luke, for whom Spirit baptism is a second work of grace after salvation.  Consider these 5 points:

(1) "John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now(1:4).""But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be witnesses (1:8)..."                                                                                       "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them ability (2:4)."

(2) Luke identifies 2 characteristics of Spirit baptism: an experience of power and speaking in tongues.  Spirit power enables them to witness effectively, aided by their healings through the power of the Spirit. 

(3) In 3 of the 4 cases in Acts when believers are baptized in the Spirit, we are told that they speak in tongues. In the 4th case (in Samaria) an eruption of tongues seems implied by the demonstration of "power" impressive enough to prompt Simon the Magician to offer money for this "power."  The Samaritans believe the Gospel and are baptized in water and are thus saved (8:12).  They presumably received the regenerating Holy Spirit.  It is important to note that Luke nowhere acknowledges the redemptive work of the Spirit upon initial profession of faith in Christ.  So these new Samaritan Christians now need to be baptized with the Holy Spirit as a second work of grace: "The 2 [Peter and John] went down to pray for them; for as yet the Spirit had not come upon any of them.  They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (8:15-16)."

(4) Note the question that Paul asks the Ephesian "disciples:"  "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (19:2)?"  The question assumes that these disciples first became Christians and now need the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  And what is the sign of  that baptism?  An experience of divine power evidenced by speaking on tongues and prophesying (19:6).

(5) Jesus'  disciples receive Spirit baptism as a second work of grace after having already received the Spirit from Jesus (John 20:22-23). Only after receiving the Holy Spirit do the disciples have the power and discernment to "forgive" or "retain" sins.  Of course, by doing so, they are making real the forgiveness offered by God Himself.

That is classic Pentecostalism as shown in AOG doctrine, which is using the Samaritan and the Ephesus experiences in Acts.  Many have been genuinely baptised with the Spirit under that doctrine.

But Paul, in Galatians seems to have a different view.  He says, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed, by faith or the works of the Law?  It seems significant that he didn't say "after you believed".  It appears that he is going with what happened on the day of Pentecost and also with Cornelius' household - one, when the Holy Spirit first came, and two, when Cornelius and his household received the gospel and believed on Christ.  Also, the Ephesus disciples had only the baptism of John, and so they had never heard the gospel of Christ, or of the Holy Spirit, and when Paul explained both, they were immediately converted to Christ and baptised with the Holy Spirit at the same time.

So, how do we explain the apparent contradiction?

My view is this:  Every person who receives Christ receives the baptism with the Spirit at the same time.  The ones who believe that it is a second work of grace, come to a place of faith where they allow the Holy Spirit to flow out of them with tongues and prophecy when they "receive" according to their faith.  The ones who believe that they receive the Holy Spirit at conversion, move immediately into tongues ad prophecy according to their faith.  These may happen later as they learn that they can use their faith to move in these gifts.

But either way, their baptism with the Spirit is genuine, and their tongues and prophecies are of the Holy Spirit.

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When we are baptized into Christ by the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13), we are immersed into Him, sealed in Him for the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God (Rom 8:16). We are eternally secure in Christ. This is rather clearly stated in, for example, Eph 1:13-14:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This happens at gospel conversion (not water baptism), as the Spirit is given as an earnest (basically, a pledge) of Divine Love and salvation.

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