Free will and human stupidity

[Uber Genius]

On September 15, 2019 at 10:40 PM, HAZARD said:

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).

God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

It is His plan for mankind that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22;17).

God knows every event that will occur in history and every event that could have possibly occurred before creation.

the passages that you quote are just a fashion of speaking.

Psalm 147:5 "Great is our Lord, and mighty on power, his understanding is infinite."

Acts 15:18 "known to God from eternity are all his works"

proverbs 15:3 "the eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on evil and good."

So spend some extra time exegeting any passage that denies God's foundational nature (omnicience).

[Uber Genius]

On January 5, 2020 at 2:17 PM, HAZARD said:

Instead of jumping the gun and declaring all out war on me, why don't you take the time to read every Scripture provided in this post and maybe you will get the big picture.

 The question of the omniscience of God is much miss-understood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limits God's knowledge. There would be no sense to these many passages if we do not believe them literally. There also is no meaning to them if we make or take the figuratively. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were UNTRUE.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of man as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18: 21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 21:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Romans 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11;1; 12:1; Zech.1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail conserning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

 

 God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32);

that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).

God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

God send his messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18: 21-22; Dan. 13:21; 11:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2-2; Rev. 1;1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1-14; 6:20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

There is not one statement in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and pre-destinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's eternal plan for man is known from beginning to end and what God plans to bring to past He has the power to do, but concerning the free will actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestinated blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestinated punishments according to His plan.

It is His plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22;17).

There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions; God plan is known by Him from beginning to end and men who are obedient to God will be blessed with the promised blessings made by God. Those who fail God and refuse to believe God and deny Christ will be cursed with the promised curses.

 

If one doesnt agree with this, read these Scriptures.

 

(Lev. 26:3-54; Deut. 11:13-32; 12:1-32; 28:1-62; 30:15-20; 55:1-13;; 59:8-14; etc).

This is not correct and in fact not held by any Christian that I'm aware of in the last 1600 years!

You are misinterpreting your passages above due to your misunderstanding of how the Biblical authors use figures of speech! 

"Anthropomorphisms also attribute human form and shape to God. God redeems Israel from Egyptian bondage with an outstretched arm ( Exod 6:6 ). Moses and his companions see God, and they eat and drink with him ( Exod 24:10-11 ). Other texts refer to the back, face, mouth, lips, ears, eyes, hand, and finger of God. The expression, "the Lord's anger burned" ( Exod 4:14 ) is interesting. A literal translation of the Hebrew is "the nose of the Lord burned."

For more on this topic see:https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/anthropomorphism.html

God doesn't have limited knowledge. He also doesn't have a face, wings, a nose, fingers, white hair. He is in fact immaterial, a mind without body! You have been misinterpreting passages. I would get a Bible in your first language if it is not english, and I would study figurative language and how it is used by the Biblical authors.

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, Uber Genius said:

God knows every event that will occur in history and every event that could have possibly occurred before creation.

the passages that you quote are just a fashion of speaking.

Psalm 147:5 "Great is our Lord, and mighty on power, his understanding is infinite."

Acts 15:18 "known to God from eternity are all his works"

proverbs 15:3 "the eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on evil and good."

So spend some extra time exegeting any passage that denies God's foundational nature (omnicience).

The few passages that you have quoted are just a fashion of speaking.

There is not one statement in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and pre-destinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's eternal plan for man is known from beginning to end and what God plans to bring to past He has the power to do, but concerning the free will actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestinated blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestinated punishments according to His plan.

It is His plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22;17).

So why don't you spend some extra time exegeting all the dozens  passage that clearly teach that there are some things God does not know until He is informed.

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, Uber Genius said:

This is not correct and in fact not held by any Christian that I'm aware of in the last 1600 years!

You are misinterpreting your passages above due to your misunderstanding of how the Biblical authors use figures of speech! 

"Anthropomorphisms also attribute human form and shape to God. God redeems Israel from Egyptian bondage with an outstretched arm ( Exod 6:6 ). Moses and his companions see God, and they eat and drink with him ( Exod 24:10-11 ). Other texts refer to the back, face, mouth, lips, ears, eyes, hand, and finger of God. The expression, "the Lord's anger burned" ( Exod 4:14 ) is interesting. A literal translation of the Hebrew is "the nose of the Lord burned."

For more on this topic see:https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/anthropomorphism.html

God doesn't have limited knowledge. He also doesn't have a face, wings, a nose, fingers, white hair. He is in fact immaterial, a mind without body! You have been misinterpreting passages. I would get a Bible in your first language if it is not english, and I would study figurative language and how it is used by the Biblical authors.

In Exodus 33:18-23, Moses asked to see God in all His Glory. God said no one can see and God said, no one can see me and my face, in my full glory and live. TLF says He does not have a body so He cannot have a face?

V, 18, And he (Moses), said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

V, 20 And he (God), said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. here we go He mentions His face which he does not have because He has no body?

But God wanted Moses to see Him in His spirit body and said;

V, 21, And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:



V,22, And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
   

V 23, And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

WHAT? What back parts? If God has back parts and a hand to cover Moses's eyes then He must also have front parts, and an arm to cary His Hands, and a Tongue and mouth so as He could speak to Moses?

Remembering God spoke with His mouth and tongue and in His head FACE TO FACE with Moses as a man speaks with his friend?

Genesis 33: 11, And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. Not without a body he couldn't and would not?

If you don't believe these many Scriptures then maybe you should tear them out of your bible.

[HAZARD]

 The question of the omniscience of God is much miss-understood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limits God's knowledge. There would be no sense to these many passages if we do not believe them literally. There also is no meaning to them if we make or take the figuratively. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were UNTRUE.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of man as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18: 21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 21:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Romans 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11;1; 12:1; Zech.1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail conserning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

 

 God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32);

that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).

God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

God send his messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18: 21-22; Dan. 13:21; 11:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2-2; Rev. 1;1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1-14; 6:20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

There is not one statement in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and pre-destinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's eternal plan for man is known from beginning to end and what God plans to bring to past He has the power to do, but concerning the free will actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestinated blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestinated punishments according to His plan.

It is His plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22;17).

There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions; God plan is known by Him from beginning to end and men who are obedient to God will be blessed with the promised blessings made by God. Those who fail God and refuse to believe God and deny Christ will be cursed with the promised curses.

[HAZARD]

6 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

This is not correct and in fact not held by any Christian that I'm aware of in the last 1600 years!

You are misinterpreting your passages above due to your misunderstanding of how the Biblical authors use figures of speech! 

God doesn't have limited knowledge. He also doesn't have a face, wings, a nose, fingers, white hair. He is in fact immaterial, a mind without body! You have been misinterpreting passages. I would get a Bible in your first language if it is not english, and I would study figurative language and how it is used by the Biblical authors.

 A student, while attending a Bible collage discussed this subject of God being an invisible nothing being taught there, showed the teachers all the these Scriptures of God having bodily parts mentioned in Scriptures,

And they said;

"Well, that’s a mere human expression trying to convey some idea of God."

He argued back, "What kind of a human expression could it be, or what kind of an idea could this human expression convey about God that He doesn't have these bodily parts or that He does?"

They said that God is a Spirit. They did have that knowledge, that one thing, that God is a Spirit, but they refuse to recognise all these many hundreds of other Scriptures describing God's Spirit body as being real with bodily parts like a human being.

And so the student said to them;

"Is that the way you would tell me you didn't have hands, to talk about your hands, what you did with your hands, what you could do with your hands, and what your going to do with your hands, your really trying to get across to me that you didn't have any such thing?"

"Oh no, they said, that isn't the way we would say it?"

"Well," my friend said, "How would you say it?"

"Well" they said, If we didn't have hands we would tell you, we do not have hands."

My friend replied;

"If God ever said that, ONE time in the Bible, that He did not have hands, He didn't have feet to walk on, He didn't have hair, He didn't have a body, He couldn't wear cloths, He couldn't sit on a Throne, He couldn't see, hear, If it ever said one thing like that about God, then that would be sufficient, I would take all these hundreds, of so called human expressions as being figurative language about God."

He had learnt that all figurative language expresses literal truths just like the figures themselves. In other words, figures of speech convey real ideas, not unreality.

[Uber Genius]

On March 2, 2020 at 7:46 PM, HAZARD said:

argued back, "What kind of a human expression could it be, or what kind of an idea could this human expression convey about God that He doesn't have these bodily parts or that He does?"

Good question.

answer: 

It is figurative speech which uses concepts and objects in our world that we understand (human bodies) and relates them to concepts or beings we don't understand (an immaterial God).

We find figurative language to be as frequently used in ancient literature as there are stars in the heavens! 

Here is a book that identify and classifies 100s of such Biblical examples written in the late 1800s by a man named Bullinger.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Figures_of_Speech_Used_in_the_Bible_Expl.html?id=CNrNBgAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description

Here is a site that has all 217 figures of speech classified with examples of their occurrence from various scriptures.

https://levendwater.org/books/figures_of_speech/index.htm

hope these help.

 

[HAZARD]

3 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Good question.

answer: 

It is figurative speech which uses concepts and objects in our world that we understand (human bodies) and relates them to concepts or beings we don't understand (an immaterial God).

We find figurative language to be as frequently used in ancient literature as there are stars in the heavens! 

Here is a book that identify and classifies 100s of such Biblical examples written in the late 1800s by a man named Bullinger.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Figures_of_Speech_Used_in_the_Bible_Expl.html?id=CNrNBgAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description

Here is a site that has all 217 figures of speech classified with examples of their occurrence from various scriptures.

https://levendwater.org/books/figures_of_speech/index.htm

hope these help.

 

How can we tell if the language is literal of figurative? This is one of the most simple questions to answer. Any man or woman with ordinary intelligence between the two ways of expressing the truth. The one fundamental rule to determine whether language is literal or figurative is this.

Take every statement in the Bible as literal when it is at all possible and where it is clear that it is literal, otherwise, it is figurative. In other words, what cannot be literal must be figurative. The subject matter itself as expressed in human language will always make this clear. One must be sure the language if figurative before giving it a figurative meaning. If it seems hard to determine by the words of the subject matter, then Scriptures on the same subject will clear up the difficulty. There are always plain literal statements in the Bible proving every doctrine, so if a figurative statement is found in the Bible on the same  subject, explain the figurative passage with the literal passages.

Remember, no figure of speech ever does away with the literal truth, but merely expresses it in another way. Figures of speech are of two main kinds; first, those involving only a word as in Gal. 2:9 where Peter, James, and John are called "pillars" of the church; second, those involving thought expressed in several words, or sentences, as the parable, allegory, symbol, type, riddle, fable, enigma, etc. With a knowledge of the general plan of God, what the Scriptures are, and how to interpret them, we can study the Bible and its eternal plan for mankind. Without a general knowledge of the entire plan of God for mankind we are faced with contradictions, opposition against God's Word which tries to turn men away from the truths God wants men to get in order for them to be blessed."
 
Every person who has any knowledge of these forms of human expression should understand the Bible just as he does any other books. All these forms of human expression were used by God in giving His revelations of all things and of Himself. He used them for the same purpose as men do, to convey literal truths. All men can understand the Bible alike on the same grounds on which they understand other books where these forms of human language are used if they will be sensible about the Bible as they are with other books.
 
Men do not SPIRITUALISE other books or make every literal statement in the SYMBOLIC and MYSTICAL, and there is no excuse for us to do this with Bible truths.
When such human language is used in other books, men do not differ so much. They do not make them mean anything that they want the to mean. They are sensible with the writings of others and put forth every effort to get the intended idea of the author, but when it comes to the Bible the intent of God as plainly stated means nothing to the average person. Just so each person can change and interpret to suit himself, he thinks that his interpretation must be the truth of the Bible.
This method of interpretation is nothing less than satanic opposition against God which tries to turn men away from the truths God wants them to get in order for them to be blessed. If Satan can succeed in his purpose, God and His Word will be discredited, and men will pay little heed to what is written. Men will not be held guiltless for this attitude.