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Free will and human stupidity


Nadjeschda

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On 9/16/2019 at 5:40 AM, HAZARD said:

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).

God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

It is His plan for mankind that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22;17).

Hazard,

If God does not know the destiny of every man and every physical thing in the universe He made....wouldn't He be a very weak God?

And how would you explain Romans 8:29 ?

It states that God FOREKNEW who would accept Him and be predestined to be in the conformity of Jesus.

Is there a conflict in scripture?

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5 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

It is 'sons of God' and not sons of Seth or Israel. Translations utilizing Qumran are more accurate.

JA, could you give me the exact verse please?

I usually use the NASB, but have different translations.

I also like to check the YLT when there's a question and also the Greek Lexicon, although I don't care to make a habit of this...very rarely is it important enough...

 

Thanks.

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9 hours ago, Fran C said:

Hazard,

If God does not know the destiny of every man and every physical thing in the universe He made....wouldn't He be a very weak God?

And how would you explain Romans 8:29 ?

It states that God FOREKNEW who would accept Him and be predestined to be in the conformity of Jesus.

Is there a conflict in scripture?

God foreordained, determined, and predestinated that all men be called to salvation, but that only the ones who accept become genuine called ones to be justified and glorified. none are glorified, but those who, according to His purpose, meet the terms of the gospel. Who they will be is left up to the individual (John 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Rev. 22:17; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 3:19). All things depend upon meeting the conditions of the gospel (Romans 8:1-13, 28).

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14 hours ago, HAZARD said:

God foreordained, determined, and predestinated that all men be called to salvation, but that only the ones who accept become genuine called ones to be justified and glorified. none are glorified, but those who, according to His purpose, meet the terms of the gospel. Who they will be is left up to the individual (John 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Rev. 22:17; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 3:19). All things depend upon meeting the conditions of the gospel (Romans 8:1-13, 28).

Agreed 100%...in your last post, to which I was replying, you seemed to say that God did not know the destiny of man.

I believe He does, but that we have the free will to choose God or not....

I also not that the O.P. of this thread has disappeared.  Will see you around in other threads I hope.

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All who are saved are saved by Grace. All who are condemned are condemned justly. 

Predestination is gratuitous, purely from the Grace of God:

Titus 3:5

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Reprobation is deserved, owing to persistent rejection of Grace:

2 Thess 2:12

 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

No one is lost except because of their free-willed rejection of the Truth and Grace that came through Jesus Christ. But free-will does not save us, the Grace of God, which transforms our free will, and enables us to do all our good works in God and His Grace, saves us.

Edited by Xavier
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On 11/14/2019 at 10:00 PM, Fran C said:

Agreed 100%...in your last post, to which I was replying, you seemed to say that God did not know the destiny of man.

I believe He does, but that we have the free will to choose God or not....

I also not that the O.P. of this thread has disappeared.  Will see you around in other threads I hope.

 

You wrote;

"

I believe He does, but that we have the free will to choose God or not.... "

.

God does not know what a free moral agent will choose until he makes his choice, for example, When God tested Abraham, He said, after Abraham decided to obey God and offer his son and passed the test;

Genesis 22:12, And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him:

FOR NOW I KNOW

that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God had to know if Abraham would obey Him in all things before He gave His the promised blessings.

 

 

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2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

You wrote;

 

.

God does not know what a free moral agent will choose until he makes his choice, for example, When God tested Abraham, He said, after Abraham decided to obey God and offer his son and passed the test;

Genesis 22:12, And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him:

FOR NOW I KNOW

that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God had to know if Abraham would obey Him in all things before He gave His the promised blessings.

 

 

well GOD sure knew what essau would do before he was even born and Jacob.       OH HE KNOWS .  HE KNOWS EVERYTHING .    

  • Well Said! 1
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21 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

well GOD sure knew what essau would do before he was even born and Jacob.       OH HE KNOWS .  HE KNOWS EVERYTHING .    

Not so. God knows His plan for man from beginning to end. God does not know what free moral agents will do until they chose the way in which they will go. If God created people he knew would end up in eternal Hell forever, he would be no God at all.

Regarding Esau, .  .  .  Mal. 1:1-3, V 1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 
    2, I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 
    3, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 

Hate, as used here us an idiom of preference, as in Luke 14:25-27, not a term pressing personal malice or jealousy in the sense that we now use (V 1).

This is the 6th of 12 cases in Scripture where God made a choice of the younger over the older brother. Here it was because of the disposition and attitude toward Him. Esau was a fornicator and destitute of hunger for God in his life (Heb. 12:16-17), while Jacob was the type that loved the Lord and hungered to do his will.

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15 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

You wrote;

 

.

God does not know what a free moral agent will choose until he makes his choice, for example, When God tested Abraham, He said, after Abraham decided to obey God and offer his son and passed the test;

Genesis 22:12, And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him:

FOR NOW I KNOW

that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God had to know if Abraham would obey Him in all things before He gave His the promised blessings.

 

 

I understand your point H, and will not argue with you.

My problem is that there is conflict in scripture regarding this, and by the looks of it, you haven't reconciled that conflict.

I have asked you before HOW do you reconcile Genesis 22:12 with

Hebrews 4:12-13

Isaiah 46:10

Romans 8:29

You say God does not know what a free agent will do until he does it... It does appear from many verses that God DOES know what a free agent will choose...this does NOT mean that God's knowledge will CAUSE that agent to choose..but only that God knows.

 

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4 hours ago, Fran C said:

I understand your point H, and will not argue with you.

My problem is that there is conflict in scripture regarding this, and by the looks of it, you haven't reconciled that conflict.

I have asked you before HOW do you reconcile Genesis 22:12 with

Hebrews 4:12-13

Isaiah 46:10

Romans 8:29

You say God does not know what a free agent will do until he does it... It does appear from many verses that God DOES know what a free agent will choose...this does NOT mean that God's knowledge will CAUSE that agent to choose..but only that God knows.

 

Why would God test Abraham if He knew Abraham would pass the test. Why put Abraham and his son through such a horrible test, asking him to kill his son and offer him up to God as the pagans did?

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16). God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19). God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

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